General Chat

For those that didnt spot it :

Just because Dr Lewis is 83 with a glittering career of academic, literary and legal achievment behind him doesn't automatically mean he has more commonsense than the cashier or manager.

Is a very obvious goad, sorry John but you are getting boring with it now must try harder :-D :-D :-D

Two examples here below. I think if I trawl through the thread (which I won't) I might find I made that point more than twice.

I have tried to be as fair as I can to the cashier, having tried to defend Dr Robyn. I do not know the cashier or the manager and only know Dr Lewis by reputation (good and bad) and what one or two - close to Pwllheli and knowing the Welsh language situation there - have written. But to suggest that the cashier could not have acted differently and that it was all the fault of Dr Lewis is not fair. Certainly not fair on the scant information provided from that Cambrian News piece in OP.

30 Dec 1648
I would suggest that the assistant had had a bad day. And he was a grumpy old man. It happens!

I think she would have spoken to customers in Welsh and probably asked for the money in English

30 Dec 23.43
I do think it possible that Spar cashiers are taught to use English in the money part of the transaction. They would be encouraged to chat to the customer in the language most natural during the time she was ringing the goods. And then a lot of Welsh speakers seem to use English for stating money.

Rebekah. I was writing about an estate in Merthyr Tydfil earlier and thinking about what you said about Aberkenfig (boys throwing stones at you in a graveyard) and Brynmelyn (woman angry because you had an English accent).

I have recently had to do some work in that estate in Merthyr (average age of death 58!!). It was poor, deprived, black streets as per Charles Booth classification probably). Yet I had no problems at all. Met some very pleasant (really pleasant actually) people. Those things seem to happen in places where you least expect them.

Glad you are coming back to Wales. Sure you will get red carpet treatment.

Hayley. Can't work out why you think I am goading. Don't know anything about the cashier, but it is quite a hard job and you need to be very efficient, polite and good with all types of customers. A lot of the winter customers in Pwllheli will be older people, Welsh speaking in the main, with all the grumps and grouses, aches and pains of that generation.

Dr Lewis has a bee in his bonnet about Welsh language. Hands up on this thread who hasn't got a bee in their bonnet about something. Well, cashiers often have to listen to your bees and reply politely. He feels she didn't. Unlike others, I really don't know. I wasn't there.

I give up :-( :-(
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JohnLovesCocoa Report 12 Jan 2013 20:13

Two examples here below. I think if I trawl through the thread (which I won't) I might find I made that point more than twice.
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What happens next......2 quotes from 30 Dec , obviously trawled for.
Am I surprised..NO !
You can't remember what you said a few minutes before or don't mean what you say .

Those posts where made after you said the Dr was annoyed because the cashier had changed from speaking Welsh to English suddenly and that was why he was annoyed , not because you think a lot of Welsh speakers ask for the money in English.

I have made my point and will make no further comments on the said Dr or yourself on this thread.
:-)

Sandie Dr Lewis wants to live through Welsh language if he is speaking Welsh. English when he is speaking English. I can understand that.

I have said a few times on this thread that some Welsh speakers go into English for money. It does seem wrong to some Welsh speakers (not many) that that happens when it is as easy to state money in Welsh as English.

I have changed my stance slightly during this long thread - particularly when a local poster (Tecwyn?) made some points about the store in Pwllheli and the recent forays by Dr Lewis on certain local issues.

But since when in a long discussion thread is it a FAULT to change your stance? Particularly if significant new information surfaces (which it hasn't really in this case)

I think the letter in the paper sums it up perfectly..who does HE think he is tellling people how they should or should not speak in a bilingual country...pompous old git.

I have to agree with John on one of his points. There is nothing wrong with changing your initial views when more information becomes available or you begin to see other people's points of view.

I agree Sue and if that is the case on any thread ..say so. No prob. :-)

Heavens...still going today. Thanks Tec :-D

I have not found myself persuaded that this chap is anything but a self serving publicist!

Chatting with Sandie I mentioned that I couldn't remember the last time the sum owed wasn't given in English even where I live.

I think he has done a disservice to the Welsh language cause, even if only temporarily. Researching him and reading some of his words of wisdom makes me cringe. You need water not petrol when dealing with a potential fire.

Re staff on tills, I buy things in a very Welsh shop, they know when I am struggling and will speak in English. There is no tut tutting and they want my nearly 30 years of custom to continue. Plus they don't need bad publicity. My son has a saying: the 3 quickest forms of communication are telephone, telegraph and tell a Cardi.....and boy is that true.

As I have said - I've caused many a giggle from people when I've attempted to pronounce words or names in my Aussie accent. I think it was appreciated that I tried. Just saying "thank you" in Welsh brought a smile to most faces.

Most Welsh speakers are quite flattered when non Welsh speakers say a few phrases like "Thankyou" (Diolch yn fawr). And visitors do like to practice a few phrases.

It is a nice language and if flows a lot better than English and is easier and more natural. And a big advantage is that it is phonetic - so once you can pronounce the alphabet (which is quite different to English A-Z) you can say quite long words with ease. Only really difficult letter is "ll". But a lot of English newsreaders pronounce it "cl" and that usually doesn't sound too wrong at the beginning of a place name.

There is an inferiority complex about using Welsh. I remember when George Borrow was walking in Wales nearly 200 years ago that he spoke Welsh with a maid and she said she would rather speak English as it was more genteel.

And we have had things like the "Welsh not" less than 100 years ago when no children were allowed to speak Welsh at school and were punished if overheard.

And then films, TV of 1930's and 1940's were often American English. So it is not surprising that Welsh was dying out rapidly by the time Saunders Lewis (the well-known "Englishman" who was born in Birkenhead;-))gave his radio address called Tynged yr Iaith (Fate of the Welsh Language). That spurned the Welsh Language Society, painting out road signs etc and there has been fantastic attempts to save the language since then. I think Saunders Lewis said teh language would have totally died out as a living language spoken round hearths within two generations ie by now.

This issue at Spar checkout was resolved to the satisfaction of Dr Lewis before this thread started. And the store was making no issue of it. But it has certainly been a big talking point on here. I have always thought that several have judged an elderly man guilty on insufficient evidence. I would not like you to be on my jury. :-) More like Wild West than Hywel Dda.

Back to the origins - Lewis both refused to pay for the goods unless the total was given him in Welsh, and then he refused to leave the shop until this was done (( read all the reports on the 'incident')).
It was at this point the police were involved.

Thank you, Tecwyn, I'd not read any local responses before your post.

Sums it up really. The man has done far more harm than good, and as the 'English' papers also reported it, has become a laughing stock who has given 'the english' their own 'pointed stick' to dig into the Principality per se.

Well done, Dr Pratt.

Well I am one of the hang 'em brigade or at the least stick 'em in the stocks on market day so you stand no chance :-D

Robyn Lewis's letter (and this would not have been reported at all unless he had written) was to Y Cymro, the main Welsh weekly newspaper.

Only I have mentioned this letter - the Cambrian News release in OP seems designed to appeal those who have no great love for Welsh language. It is a typically half accurate news release.

I would like to see a fair translation of that original letter and any responses in Y Cymro. Otherwise, I repeat people are making half-cocked suppositions that he was rude to the cashier. I very much doubt he was rude at first, but think the incident escalated and he is no dounbt a stubborn (highly principled) and opinionated (wise) man. He is not the only one who will not back off if he thinks he has right on his side.

I did try to find the report in Y Cymro but failed have you got the link?

Good Morning everyone :-D

John
*I repeat people are making half-cocked suppositions that he was rude to the cashier. I very much doubt he was rude at first*, you have also assumed that he went in to the shop to buy local produce, my point is you have assumed alot of what happened also, as I have assumed that he isnt that wise and this epsiode has done him no favours.
I have not having a dig at you John at all, you obviously have a great love of Wales and all that is Welsh as it is now your adoptive Country and that is lovely, how many times do we hear about people behaving as they should " when in Rome" but your opinion of Mr Lewis is that and nothing that you have already posted or points you have made will change my mind and I doubt the other 99% of people on this thread that disagree with you, will change their minds also. Mr Lewis is STILL a pompous little twerp of man that has done Druids no favours what so ever.

A point that has not been made very strongly is that to be a 'highly principled ' man in the request for use of the Welsh language, Mr Lewis might , I feel, be better putting his energies towards ensuring he has the option not just to speak his own language but to pay for his goods in currency printed / minted with his own language on it? Surely it must go against the grain for him to be using 'Bank of England' notes... perhaps a truly principled man would refuse to do so....and it would have to be 'barter or nothing'? ;-)

Scotland has it's own bank notes...why, given that the royal mint is in Cardiff, and that the Welsh parliament has been in place for a number of years has this not been made a 'priority' ?

Dr Lewis may well be well educated and highly principled, as I don't know the man I couldn't say for certain and he does sound very stubborn I agree, but I have to disagree with you John that he is wise. I also think he lacks common sense, a failing of a lot of the very well educated people that I know.

Well Dr L,,will be pleased to read/hear that 20 areas have now signed up to promote the Welsh lanuage,that is good....its all down to the 2011 cenus finding numbers that Welsh speakers have dropped.

I belive its their heritage and should not be left to dwindle away...but hope they keep in mind that without many of the English speaking tourists to put cash in the coffers these are not made to feel intruders.

I watched a programe a day or so ago on the origins and growth of Barry it was enlightening as those on camera had no Welsh accent at all.!!......but there are Welsh speakers there...a place I've never visited.

Edit,,Well put Rose......but maybe because coinage used in Wales carries or did emblems, that included those used in Wales ?like the Crown, :-D