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Hi there, and a good Saturday afternoon to you all,

I descend from a Mary Worrall (baptised 1813 in Frodsham, Cheshire), daughter of Richard and Hannah (nee Whalley) Worral who married in Frodsham in 1810. Can you help me work back over?

I noticed there was a Richard and Hannah Worrall seem to be living in Frodsham at the time of the 1841 census, with some of their children. There is a burial for a Richard Worrall in 1847, making him born c. 1784 and there is a baptism for a Richard Worrall in 1784 in Frodsham to a John and Margaret Worrall but this Richard seems to have been buried in 1800 (the original burial record states he was the son of John and Margaret Worrall of Overton).

A lot of trees on ancestry have the 1784 Richard Worrall as being the father of my Mary/and/or her siblings, but surely this can't be the case? Is this a situation of people merely copying family trees without their own research?

Would you on here be able to help me work back over, or at least confirm this situation one way or another?

Kind regards,

Peter

Take a look on Family Search site .That's where we would look

Many trees on Ancestry say that the Richard Worrall who died in 1847 was born 1784, the son of John Worrall and Margaret Hazelhurst and was married to Hannah Walley/Whalley. Of course these trees could all have been copied from the same one.

Is this is the 1841 you mean,


Richard Worrall
Age:50
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1791
Where born:Cheshire, England
Civil Parish:Frodsham

Richard Worrall 50
Hannah Worrall 45
Richard Worrall 20
Joseph Worrall 9
Elizabeth Worrall 8
Eliza Worrall 6

There was another Richard with same parents' names:

Name: Richard Worrall
Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 16 May 1788
Event Place: Frodsham, Cheshire, England
Gender: Male
Age:
Marital Status:
Father's Name: John Worrall
Mother's Name: Margaret
Spouse's Name:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
GS Film number: 1655670
Digital Folder Number: 004008473
Image Number: 00405

Yeah thanks Shirely, already looking but always appreciate second opinions. And Margee, yeah, I suspect the ancestry trees are all copied from the same one

And Potty - I had noticed the 1788 baptism BUT it is the same date (16 May) as the 1784 one! So a transcript error?

Peter

Also, only one marriage of a John Worrall and a Margaret:

John Worrall
England Marriages, 1538–1973
marriage: 21 January 1779 Frodsham,Cheshire,England
spouse: Peggy Haslehurst


Could it be that this couple had TWO sons named John?!

MARRIAGE

Name: Richard Worrall
Spouse's Name: Hannah Walley
Event Date: 02 Oct 1810
Event Place: Frodsham,Cheshire,England



Name: Thomas Worrall
Christening Date: 10 Mar 1811
Christening Place: FRODSHAM,CHESHIRE,ENGLAND
Father's Name: Richard Worrall
Mother's Name: Hannah



Name: Mary Worall
Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 14 Mar 1813
Event Place: , Frodsham, Cheshire, England
Father's Name: Richard Worrall
Mother's Name: Hannah





Name: John Worrall
Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 12 Nov 1815
Event Place: , Frodsham, Cheshire, England
Father's Name: Richard Worrall
Mother's Name: Hannah
:


Samuel Worrall
Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 14 Dec 1817
Event Place: Frodsham, Cheshire, England :
Father's Name: Richard Worrall
Mother's Name: Hannah Worrall



Richard Worrall
England, Cheshire Parish Registers, 1538-2000
christening: 8 October 1820 , Frodsham, Cheshire, England
residence: 8 October 1820 , , England, Cheshire
father: Richard Worrall
mother: Hannah






Hannah Worrall
England, Cheshire Parish Registers, 1538-2000
christening: 23 March 1823 , Frodsham, Cheshire, England
residence: 23 March 1823 , , England, Cheshire
father: Richard Worrall
mother: Hannah






William Worrall
England, Cheshire Parish Registers, 1538-2000
christening: 29 January 1826 , Frodsham, Cheshire, England
residence: 29 January 1826 , , England, Cheshire
father: Richard Worrall
mother: Hannah



Joseph Worrall
England, Cheshire Parish Registers, 1538-2000
christening: 9 November 1828 , Frodsham, Cheshire, England
residence: 9 November 1828 , , England, Cheshire
father: Richard Worrall
mother: Hannah



Elizabeth Worrall
England, Cheshire Bishop's Transcripts, 1598-1900
christening: 19 February 1832 Frodsham, Cheshire, England
residence: 19 February 1832 , Frodsham, Cheshire, England
father: Richard Worrall
mother: Hannah

Thank you Mike, yes, that is their children! Thank you for adding that here! Hopefully it will help when working back over!

Peter

Quite often a child was given the same name as one who had died but this doesn't seem to be the case here as the one born 1784 is shown as dying in 1800 so after the 2nd baptism. Also, the 1784 record on familysearch is from Parish records and the 1788 one is from Bishop's Transcripts, so a mistranscription is possible.

It might be worth ordering the films at your nearest Family History Centre. This link brings up the familysearch page for finding it.

Thanks Potty - I've already downloaded the images from FindMyPast. Also one for a Peggy Worrall in baptised in December 1788. Again, where do we go from here then?

Not sure where you go next, but you can't know Richard was born in Frodsham - you only have the 1841 census with born "in county", which may not even be right. I would be tempted to believe the 1800 death - parish registers were often cross-referenced with death details, although you'd need to see them to check. Also the 1788 christening could be mis-transcribed but without checking the actual register you won't know for sure.

Have you found a burial for Hannah? I think she may be on the 1851 census, a widow, born c1792 Barnton, Cheshire and housekeeper to Thomas Shallcross and alone in 1861 a "labourers widow". There is a possible death for her in 1863, reg Runcorn.

ADDED: it's also a bit unusual (although not conclusive) they didn't name one of their children Margaret - unless he didn't like his mother!

Thank you Flip - yeah, I came to a similar conclusion, as in not knowing Richard Worrall was born DEFINITELY in Frodsham. I suspected that there were two John and Margaret Worralls, with the males being perhaps cousins? Am I wrong in suggesting there must be a family connection between these two,especially as Richard (c 1784-1847) my ancestor was married there, raised his family and then subsequently was buried there?

With this, I can't find a burial for Hannah Whalley Worrall.

But how do you know his parents were John/Margaret - there is nothing to support this if you accept the 1800 burial?

My ancestor was born Catterick, Yorkshire c1795 but married, raised his children and died in Lancashire and his marriage stated "of this parish" - he too was an ag labourer, they moved around even back then - but mine made it to 1851/61 to get a better idea of his birth place.

With Richard not surviving until the 1851 census you have no clue as to his birth location, other than possibly Cheshire - and it looks likely that Hannah was not from Frodsham, but elsewhere in Cheshire.

Thank you for that Flip - I suppose I was saying, I suspected Richard was the one baptised in 1788 but now I see your point. There does seem to be TWO Richard Worralls, albeit with same parent names which is still odd - the one who died in 1800 could be a cousin of the one born 1788.

But with that, maybe I should widen my search further.

There seem to be a lot of people with incorrect trees on ancestry, but there is nothing new there ... sadly!

Peter

With this, there is tree on ancestry that has a photograph of Richard's son William Worrall (1826-1900). Apparently the back of the photo says:

Grandfather Worrall Five Crosses Frodsham. Grandson of Sir Edward Moore

Now, obviously, could be an error or family myth (especially with William's father being a labourer), but how would I find a connection to Edward Moore?

That could confirm further?

Thanks,

Peter

If they are correct, then the marriage you've found for Richard/Hannah would go out the window - surely his mother would have been called Moore, unless she was illegitimate. That tree does not give an Edward Moore as his grandfather as they don't have Hannah's parentage, so it's rather suspect.

Yeah, I came to the same conclusion. We shall see. Hmmm difficult to say where to go from here really!

Also a lot of trees on ancestry, have the name MOORE up the Worrall line but that would make the Moore chap a great grandfather at least!

Well, one option would be to try to contact the tree owners - see what research has gone into their findings, but treat all the info with a large pinch of salt in the meantime.

Only other options would be to actually check the parish records/directories/land taxes etc (although I doubt a ag labourer would appear in the latter 2). If you haven't already tried this you could check out all your names for what they have in the Cheshire archives collection - leases, marriage bonds, parish removal orders etc should be there:

http://archive.cheshire.gov.uk/calmview/Overview.aspx

Thank you!

I have contacted the tree owners but no responce yet! People are quite slow on ancestry I have noticed (or maybe I am impatient)!

With this, there is a will from 1816 of a John Worrall of Frodsham. Definitley worth reading ... if I order online here can I get a digital copy? Or is a hard copy forwarded in the post?