Find Ancestors

Am still trying to trace my grandfather,John Gordon,d.o.b.1867 at Mitcham Surrey.Appears on 1901 census,which is the only real evidence I have,apart from knowing that he had connections with the Kidley family in Llangattock,Monmouthshire. and that he spent some time in America.Despite all the normal channels of research I have still not managed to find any birth,marriage or death cert.! If this rings a bell with anybody.I really would like to make contact.
Thank you,
Peter White.

Hello Peter, where was he in 1901, and who with?

Do you know when he went to America, and when he returned?

Do you know anything else, like his parents - or is that what you're trying to find?

Which of his children is your direct ancestor?

Was this him?

GORDON, John Head Married M 34 1867 Gardener Mitcham Surrey
GORDON, Kitty Wife Married F 26 1875 Micheldever Hampshire
GORDON, Pansy Daughter F 3 1898 Clapham London
GORDON, Violet Daughter F 2 1899 Wootton Hampshire
GORDON, Jack Son M 1 1900 Camberwell London

Registration District: St Saviour Southwark
Sub District: St Peter Walworth
Enumeration District: 9
Ecclesiastical Parish: All Souls
Civil Parish: Newington

Address: 193, Beresford Street, Newington County: London

?????

1871 England Census
Name: John Gordon
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Son
Father's name: Henry Gordon
Mother's name: Catherine Gordon
Gender: Male
Where born: Croydon, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Croydon
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
Town: Croydon
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street Address: Southbridge Road

Registration district: Croydon
Sub-registration district: Croydon
Piece: 840
Folio: 104
Page Number: 25
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Gordon 34 - Tailor; Ireland
Catherine Gordon 25 - Rag Sorter; Ireland
Thomas Gordon 5 Months (the months seems to have been crossed out)
Mary Gordon 2
John Gordon 2


???
Marriages Jun 1864
Gordon Henry Croydon 2a 330
Sullivan Catherine Croydon 2a 330

Here's the chap I found in the 1901 off to the USA:

Passenger lists leaving UK 1890-1960
Name: John GORDON
Date of departure: 25 September 1897
Port of departure: Southampton
Destination port: New York
Destination country: USA
Date of Birth: 1866 (calculated from age)
Age: 31
Marital Status: Married
Sex: Male
Occupation: Gardener
Notes:
Passenger recorded on: Page 7 of 23
The following people with the same last name travelled on this voyage: -
Kitty GORDON
Pensey GORDON
Ship: ST PAUL
Official Number:
Master's name: J C Jamison
Steamship Line:
Where bound: New York, USA
Square feet: 16230
Registered tonnage: 5874
Passengers on voyage: 1110

Name: Kitty Gordon
Birth Date: abt 1875
Age: 23
Port of Departure: Boston, Massachusetts, United States
Arrival Date: 16 Jan 1898
Port of Arrival: Liverpool, England
Ship Name: Canada
Search Ship Database: View the 'Canada' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Shipping line: Dominion Line
Official Number: 106806

John and Pansy (Aged 6 months) were travelling with her.

A copy of Pansy's birth certificate will indicate her mothers maiden name which may then help to find her parents marriage. Info from that hopefully will give you John Gordon's fathers name and occupation.

Births Sep 1897 (>99%)
Gordon Pansy Wandsworth 1d 813

Would be useful if Peter came back to acknowledge whether we're on the right track.

I agree MC but nothing much else to do right now ;-)

I just wonder:

Marriages Jun 1894 (>99%)
Gordon John Langstone Havant 2b 765
Treagust Kate Caroline Havant 2b 765

Name: Catherine Kate Treagust
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1874
Registration district: Havant
Inferred County: Hampshire
Volume: 2b
Page: 406

I've been following that track, Jonesey. And this could connect her to John Gordon, but why would she say born Micheldever in 1901.

1891 England Census
Name: Catherine Treywat [Treagust on image]
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Female
Where born: Bedhampton, Hampshire, England
Civil parish: Croydon
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Croydon
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation: Housemaid

Registration district: Croydon
Sub-registration district: Croydon

Dear Marie,
I am still in shock!! just can't believe that this looks like the break-through I have been looking for. for the last six years. Your box 1 was from the 1901 census( except that the marriage dates are in fact the birth dates). Regarding J.G's birth,I have actually got the birth cert, (11/07/1869) and the 1871 census.For some reason I did'nt connect with the birth cert. at the time.Jack Gordon(1900) was my Dad!
The story is a long,twisted one but I will give you the details tomorrow.
Regarding the passage to the states,all the details you provided seem to slot into place,I presume that Pensey was Pansy? I did trawl through the passenger lists,found a couple of J.G's but not the right ones!!By the way,my dad changed his name to White at some stage.More tomorrow and thanks for your help.
Regards,
Peter White
P.S. Are we related in any way?

Peter,

Forgive me for being critical but in your opening post (At 20:59 20/7/2011) you made these statements:

"Appears on 1901 census,which is the only real evidence I have"

"I have still not managed to find any birth,marriage or death cert.!"

Now you state (At 22:52 20/7/2011):

"Regarding J.G's birth,I have actually got the birth cert, (11/07/1869) and the 1871 census."

In fairness to those who are prepared to freely give of their time and resources to try to assist you it is imperative that you do not make statements that are later proved to be false.

Why did you say initially that you hadn't got something that you now state that you have?

F>A.O:- MarieCeleste,Ozibird & Jonesay
If I can explain why this research for John Gordon has been so dificult was because in theearlier stages I did not realise that he was running two families! one in England & one in Wales.
English family:- J.G. Kitty(real name Annie Louisa) Pansy(1897) Violet(1898) Jack(1900) Bertha(1902)
Welsh family:- J.G. Elizabeth Kidley John(1890) Elizabeth(1892)Nellie(1894) Alfred(1897).Once again,my apologies for the confusion over the birth cert. for J.G. and to say thanks again for all your help,which is much appreciated.
Regards,
Peter White.

Hello Peter, just to point out that the 1901 census I posted shows age and year of birth after the marital status - it wasn't until the 1911 census that they actually started recording the number of years married, and that was only shown on the entry for the wife.

Was John Gordon a bigamist, or just a philanderer? ;-)

No, we're not related or connected in any way. The people who help on here just like helping others out!

Is this his other family in 1901?

VAUGHAN, Noah Head Married M 55 1846 Cattleman On Estate Broad Oak Gloucestershire
VAUGHAN, Elizabeth Wife Married F 30 1871 Monmouth
GORDAN, John Step Son Single M 10 1891 United States of America F S
GORDAN, Elizabeth Step Daughter F 8 1893 Newcastle Monmouthshire
GORDAN, Nellie Step Daughter F 6 1895 Newcastle Monmouthshire
GORDAN, Alfred Step Son M 3 1898 Newcastle Monmouthshire

Registration District: Monmouth
Sub District: Trelleck
Enumeration District: 27
Ecclesiastical Parish: Llangattock Vibon Avel St Cadoc
Civil Parish: Llangattock Vibon Avel

Address: Near Newcastle, Llangattock Vibon Avel
County: Monmouthshire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Noah & Elizabeth's marriage:

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1901
Kidley Elizabeth Monmouth 11a 53
Vaughan Noah Monmouth 11a 53

** Did she marry Noah on the rebound?

1911:

VAUGHAN, Noah Head Married M 64 1847 Blacksmiths Laberour Garway
VAUGHAN, Elizabeth Annie Wife Married F 39 1872 Osbaston Nr Monmouth
VAUGHAN, Fred Son M 7 1904 Llangattock V A
VAUGHAN, Archibald R N Son M 3 1908 Llangattock V A
VAUGHAN, Elsie R M Daughter F 0 (6 MONTHS) 1911 Llangattock V A
VAUGHAN, John C W Gordan Son Single M 20 1891 Estate Laberour Wilmington Deleware U S America

Registration District: Monmouth
Sub District: Trelleck
Enumeration District: 6
Parish: Llangattock Vibon Avel

Address: Pool Cottage Newcastle Monmouth
County: Monmouthshire

John has been incorrectly transcribed as Vaughan (have submitted correction). But, not it's spelled with an A as in the 1901.

Hi MC.
Thanks for reply,please refer to my message I sent at12.24 re:- John Gordon.I wasn't quite sure if these messages were meant just for you or not,so I sent a message to you via the "send message" way, instead of this way. However,when I checked the sent,your message did not appear,so I assume that you never received it.
Regards,
Peter.

Peter,

Received your PM and noted its content.

May I enquire how you first made the connection between John Gordon and Elizabeth Kidley? Have you got the birth certificates of any of the children that you say he and Elizabeth had together, I.E. John(1890) Elizabeth(1892) Nellie(1894) Alfred(1897) to confirm their parentage?

At this stage I am assuming that the 1901 and 1911 census records that MC has found are the ones containing the above children plus their mother. The problem that I have is that the only John Gordon 1890 birth registered in Wilmington, Delaware, USA is the one below:

Name: John Gordon
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 16 Oct 1890
Birth Place: Wilmington, New Castle, Delaware
Mother: Louisa
Father: Auls
Collection and Roll: Register of Births - 1

Firstly there is a similarity between the name of the district of his birth, New Castle (In the 1911 census) and that shown as being the birthplace of those, presumably, his siblings in the 1901 census, Newcastle, Monmouthshire. Secondly I cannot find a record of that John Gordon/Kidley or his mother Elizabeth Kidley/Gordon arriving in the UK between 1890~1893 which is when presumably Elizabeth gave birth to her daughter Elizabeth in Monmouthshire. Thirdly I cannot spot the birth record of an Elizabeth, Nellie (Eleanor?) or Alfred Gordon/Kidley in the Monmouth Registration District 1892~1897. The final complication is that the John Gordon whose 1890 Delaware birth I have found was Black.

Hi,

Firstly, No, I have no certificates on that side of the family
My first connection with Elizabeth Kidley was on this sight by her grand daughter who was doing research into JG.
Below is a couple of e-mails sent by her! This is where I got the connection.

The Gordon family as shown above has been confirmed by one of JG's grandsons also according to him JWG was baptised on August 1891 at LLandgattock Monmouthshire

Regards

Peter

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re - John Gordon
I'm afraid I don't know where John Gordon was born. My mother understood that his parents had a market garden somewhere in London. She remembered being on a bus in London(she thought it might have been Clapham) and her mother pointing down a road and saying that that was where her father was born. Of course J G was such a mystery man that he could have told Granny anything! John Wilmington Gordon was my mother's brother and he was born in Wilmington Delaware. I remember Uncle Jack well. He was a very short little man and I understand that that was why he served in the Ghurkas during WW1.


Re: John C.W.
Sorry I haven't replied before. I didn't know anything about the Du Pont connection. I shall be anxious to know if you get any more information. I don't know much about the stay in America. My Mum said that she was told by her mother that they came back home soon after Uncle Jack (John Wilmington) was born because he was a rather sickly baby and things were pretty primitive out there so they thought he would get better treatment back home.


Re: Re: Re - John Gordon
Dear Peter. I'm afraid I havn't got ay further with tracing John Gordon. I was about 5 when my grandmother Elizabeth Anne died so only just remember her. My mum Nellie Ada always thought her dad John Gordon had died until an Aunt hinted otherwise, but Mum never wanted to know any more. I think she was afraid of what she might find out. I only know that her mother remarried to Noah Vaughan under her maiden name of Kidley, so she was obviously not married to John Gordon. I wish I could find mout more about him!
Since my last message I realised Du Pont rang a bell (I'm afraid my memory is failing me in my old age) . Some years ago I obtained a book written by a second cousin David Barnes (the grandson of John Gordon and Elizabeth Kidley's son Alfred Ernest. It is called Black Mountains and is a record of his grandfather's life as told to him. Perhaps you have seen it. In it he states "I know very little about my father but he had worked for the Rolls family at The Grange in Bermondsey, then crossed the Atlantic to work for the du Pont family on their gardens at Longwood House in Wilmington, Delaware, before joining the staff of the Hendre." When I read this book I was very excited and got in touch with David Barnes to ask how he had got hold of this information. I was disappointed to get the fo.llowing reply "In order to give contextual sense to Alf's story I made a number of inferences and imaginative leaps in the dark. We have this interesting Wilmington connection and Wilmington has famous gardens at Longwood and Winterthur which were being established in the 1890s by the DuPont family. It would make sense that John Gordon had been hired to work there." He goes on to say that he has contacted Longwood and Winterthur to see if a Gordon can be found in their records but has drawn a blank.I'm afraid this just goes to show that you can't believe everything that is written.Of course there may be something worth following up and I shall be interested to hear from you if you have any luck. He did also mention in his letter to me that the school admission records for Llangattock School say that the Gordons had moved to the area from Bermondsey.Sorry for such a long rambling message!

Hi again Peter,

I am sorry to be a doubting Thomas but if you do not mind me saying so but I think that the link between your John Gordon and the family in Monmouthshire is a bit tenuous. It appears to be based upon two people on Genes Reunited looking for information about an individual called John Gordon. In terms of facts proving that the John Gordon in question was one and the same man, there doesn't actually appear to be any at all from my perspective although I could be wrong, it would not be the first time. ;-)

I have looked again for the births of the children born in Monmouthshire. With the additional forenames mentioned in the copy emails that you have posted I have had more success. I still have not found Elizabeth (c1892) but I have found the registration of the other children's births under the surname Gordan which was how they were recorded in the 1901 census.

Name: Nellie Ada Gordan
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1895
Registration district: Monmouth
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 45

Name: Alfred Ernest Gordan
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1897
Registration district: Monmouth
Inferred County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 31

It might be an idea to obtain a copy of at least one of the certificates to see what is indicated about the father,his occupation ect.

I have also found who I believe are the above in the 1911 census. Both are at different addresses in Monmouthshire working as servants. The surname of each is now shown as Gordon but as it would have been the head of household, not them, who completed the census form it may be that the head simply used the more common spelling of their surname.

I was amused by the phrase that the author of the book used when quizzed about his great grandfather. "In order to give contextual sense to Alf's story I made a number of inferences and imaginative leaps in the dark." In other words what he did not know, he made up.

I still cannot find any record of the son John C W, his mother Elizabeth or the elusive father John entering the UK in either late 1890 or early 1891 if the baptism at LLandgattock in August 1891 is indeed his. I have found his marriage in 1915 and a copy of that certificate might indicate who he considered his father to be:

Name: John C W Gordon
Spouse Surname: Edith A Hudson
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1915
Registration district: Monmouth
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 61

I love a good mystery so if you do obtain copies of any of the certificates I hope that you will let me know what information they contain.

I hope you'll put any more info you find on this thread. I'm fascinated so I'll keep checking for new postings.

Ozi