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just in case this helps fill any gaps


http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/general_topics/thread/919630

Peter 25 Jul 2007 16:26
I am trying to trace William & Violet* (my Aunt) Newman who spent quite a period of time living in Albury,Nr,Guildford. They had one son Tony who emigrated to Canada & later lived in U.S.A.If anyone out there has any connection with them at all I would be pleased to hear from you. Thank you, Peter White.


*this would be Violet Gordon from the 1901 census ?



http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/general_topics/thread/991460

Peter 9 Jan 2008 11:09
Trying to contact any relatives of my Grandfather,John Gordon c1867,who had family connections with LLangattock-Vibon-Avel,Monmouthshire(1890-1900) and family connections with London(1900-1902). He also spent some time in Wilmington,Delaware,U.S.A.
If anybody out there has any relevent info. I would love to hear from you.
Regards,
Peter.



( no replies in either thread fortunately )

and just to clear up a point

when you said

'English family:- J.G. Kitty (real name Annie Louisa)'

this was based on ... ?

the only ( possible ) John Gordon marriage to an Annie Louisa is

Marriages Dec 1889
BURDALL Jessie Kathleen Wandsworth 1d 1052
? GORDON John James Wandsworth 1d 1052
Kearsley Henry George Wandsworth 1d 1052
? Samuda Annie Louisa Wandsworth 1d 1052

and I can't imagine a reason to adopt that one


the Treadgust birth and marriage certainly look very plausible

Just for the record John and Kitty Gordon's children, Pansy (12), Violet (11) and Jack (10) are all in Basingstoke workhouse in 1911 under the surname White.

Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image
WHITE, Jack Inmate M 10 1901 School London
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
6289 Reference:
RG14PN6289 RD110 SD1 ED16 SN9999

Registration District:
Basingstoke Sub District:
Basingstoke Enumeration District:
16 Parish:
Basing

Address:
Institution: Basingstoke Union Workhouse With Detached Inprmary Near Basing,
Basing Basingstoke
County: Hampshire

Births Mar 1900
Gordon Jack St. Saviour 1d 146

Could this be the White connection????


England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915

Name: Annie Louisa White
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1874
Registration district: Winchester
Inferred County: Hampshire
Volume: 2c
Page: 93

** Micheldever came under Winchester registration.

the son Tony that Peter referred to in 2007 was born in 1934 with mother's name Gordon ... travelled to Canada in 1957 ...

I was curious what name Violet had married under ... do not see a marriage to William Newman as either Gordon or White ... perhaps was married before ( she was 35 ish in 1934 )

unless this marriage in Hampshire ?

Marriages Dec 1929
Gordon Ethel V Newman Alresford 2c 517
Newman William C Gordon Alresford 2c 517

Births Dec 1898 ?
Gordon Ethel Violet Kingsclere 2c 237 ( Hampshire )

Name: Ethel Violet Newman
Birth Date: 21 Sep 1898
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1980
Age at Death: 82
Registration district: Surrey South Western ( covers Guildford )
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 17
Page: 1312

in 1881


Name: Annie Louisa White
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Thomas White
Mother's name: Ann White
Gender: Female
> Where born: Micheldever, Hampshire, England

Civil parish: Steventon
County/Island: Hampshire
Registration district: Basingstoke

Thomas White 38
Ann White 33
Annie Louisa White 6
James White 4
Lizzie White 1


this is the family in 1891 in Pamber, no Annie Louisa

Thomas White 48
Ann White 43
James White 14
Lizzie M White 11
Alice White 9
Charles E White 3


I would guess that this is Annie Louisa in 1891 since she is in the same place ( also in district 4, 4 pages away )

Name: Annie L White
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Servant ( the head of household is a publican )
Gender: Female
Where born: Northbrook, Hampshire, England
Civil parish: Pamber


Peter has her in his tree

Annie Louisa White 1875 Micheldever, Hampshire


too bad you have been playing guessing games ...



Peter you have got to get some certificates especially from the 'other' family

also following on Jonesey's Delaware inquiries

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1672

the Delaware births index, I do not have paid access

searching for surname Gordan births 1890 +/- 5 there are these results

Robert C Gordan date location New Castle name name
Lena May Gordan date New Castle name name
John M Gordan date New Castle name name
John M Gordan date New Castle name name

they do not match mother's name Elizabeth but the father's name is John for Lena May and John M, for John M the mother's name is Mary ( just trying to match guesses )

I don't know whether it might be interesting to look at them

Name: Lena May Gordon
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 3 May 1889
Birth Place: New Castle, Delaware, occ Labourer
Mother: Ella MMN Morris
Father: John Age 45, birthplace Delaware
Collection and Roll: Register of Births - 2

Name: Lena May Gordan
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 3 May 1891
Birth Place: Wilmington, New Castle, Delaware
Mother: Ellie
Father: John
Parents details as above.

Name: John M Gordan
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 30 Jul 1894
Birth Place: Wilmington, New Castle, Delaware
Mother: Mary MMN Macklin birthplace Delaware
Father: John Age 32, birthplace Pennsylvania, Occ Bricklayer

Name: Robert C Gordan
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 28 Sep 1885
Birth Place: New Castle, New Castle, Delaware
Mother: Mary E MMN Churnside
Father: William A Age 48, occ, Carter

well those could be coincidental or not, Wilmington New Castle Delaware :-)

I wonder whether they are just mistranscribed with the more common name Gordon though ...

Chrissie,

I concur with your comment regarding Peter needing to obtain copies of the certificates for "the other family" members if only to try to discover whether the children's father was likely to be the same John Gordon who Peter believes was his grandfather.

Annie Louisa White Born Abt 1875 - Micheldever, Hampshire appears in 8 family trees on Ancestry. Out of the 8 only one shows her to have a spouse who is shown as John Gordon, born Mitcham in 1867. That tree also has what appear to be the couples 3 children, Pansy, Violet and Jack.

Whilst the tree does have some census and BMD records attached to the individuals concerned, some of the records attached are, shall we say contradictory. For example attached to Annie who was born c1875 is a 1871 census for an Annie born in 1850. Regarding Violet, her profile indicates her death in Albury,Guildford,Surrey in 1982 but attached is a death index record for someone named as Golevddydd Violet Gordon whose death was registered in Enfield, about 60 miles away. Because of such discrepancies I would be inclined to be a bit dubious as to the accuracy of the tree as a whole. Regarding the elusive John Gordon, the tree has only the same 1871 and 1901 census records as have been found by other contributors to this thread.

ah, Jonesey, Ancestry trees :-)

the usual idiots accepting the usual idiotic 'hints' from that great big tree of the whole wide world, I wager !


you know I really have not made any sense of this Kidley connection but I do wonder about this person

Births Jun 1890
Kidley John William Monmouth 11a 34


I see no later record for him ... mind, I also see no birth for

Name: William J Kidley
Birth Date: abt 1890
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1954
Age at Death: 64
Registration district: Ledbury
Inferred County: Herefordshire
Volume: 9a
Page: 58


just a red herring probably

......... yes, 1901, William Kidley with parents John and Fanny, toss him out



this is meant to be the person of interest to us ? ........ seems to have married 1918 Clutton and 1949 Ledbury

Name: John C W Gordon
Birth Date: abt 1890
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1965
Age at Death: 75
Registration district: Pontypool
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 8c
Page: 240


it certainly would be more fun here if Peter got some certificates !

Jonesey & Chrissie, you've done some great detective work.

It just goes to show what people will take on face value without digging deeper.

Ozi

to MC:-Yes! this is the right connection(Annie Louise, alias Kitty ,Micheldever) And your 1891 census is correct. l have all the relevent certs.of White family.

Have ordered a birth cert. for Nellie ada Gordan & marriage cert.for John C.W.Gordon. Hopefully will bring some new light on to the other family Connection.

Joansey:-The Annie on the 1871 census I don't think has anything to do with Annie Louise , Ann Hayter(d.o.b.1848) who became Anne White AL's mother would not have been married to Thomas White then

Also Violet ( My Auntie Vi ) I can confirm that she did die on 08/09/1980 at Albury Surrey

Have exhausted enquries in the USA ref :John C W Gordon ( Millmington Delaware )

Goodnight intrepid Researchers!

Peter, you know it would have saved us wasting some time looking up records if you'd said at the outset exactly what you already knew & had certificates for!

MC,

I can only agree. Hopefully the next time that Peter needs help on here he will bear that fact in mind.

MC,Jonesey.
May I refer you to my original posting of 20/07 20.59 where I specificily asked for help in traceing my Grandfather John Gordon,and that the only concrete evidence I had was in the 1901 census.I did not ask for any help with the White side of the family as I already had the information required.
As I explained to Jonesey,sometime ago I obtained a certificate for the birth of a J.G.(bxce 340406) In July1869 Mother Catherine Father Henry registered in Croydon I did not mention this to you at the time because I was still not convinced that I had the right J.G.and I am still trying to get the evidence to prove this one way or the other. One of the big problems was(still is) that I do not know the names of JG's parents.
The only other confirmed thing I can tell you is that I have my Grandmother's(Annie Louise) death cert.(1902) and that J.G.was present at her death.
I hope this has not wasted too much of your time.
Peter.
.

Peter, surely it is apparent at least now that asking for help tracing someone without giving ALL the information you have about them is bound to waste people's time

the 1901 census shows the wife as Kitty, you knew her full name but did not bother to say ( I assume you have her name from a child's birth certificate and not just a death certificate )

it simply is not reasonable to try to trace someone without having all the known facts about them, which includes the name of their spouse certainly

knowing that John Gordon and his wife were not in fact married is also crucial information since the overwhelming reason why people were not married is that one of them was already married and finding such a marriage can be key

knowing the names that children of unmarried parents used in later life ( e.g. Violet ... who seems to be Ethel Violet ?? ) can also be important information


we still simply have no idea what seems to connect your John Gordon with the family in Monmouth ........

still curious ........... re the 1871 census this looks like the birth of the son Thomas aged 5 in 1871

Births Mar 1866
GORDON Thomas H Croydon 2a 183

there is this death

Name: Thomas H Gordon
Birth Date: abt 1871
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1924
Age at Death: 53
Registration district: Croydon
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 2a
Page: 402

a possible marriage ?

Marriages Dec 1897
? GORDON Thomas Henry Fulham 1a 577
HOLLOWAY Carrie Fulham 1a 577
> Mellish Louisa Fulham 1a 577
Newberry Henry Charles Fulham 1a 577
Newbury Henry Charles Fulham 1a 577

who are in 1901

Name: Thomas Gordon
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Louisa Gordon
Gender: Male
Where born: Bombsy, Mhow ... Bombay

Civil parish: Fulham

Thomas Gordon 29 police constable
Louisa Gordon 29 born in Richmond Surrey


so .......... the death in 1924 would be that Thomas Henry whose birth is not in the English index



where was Thomas in 1881, 1891, 1901 ... and where were sister Mary and parents Henry and Catherine ?

I wonder whether this family returned to Ireland

I would actually be very doubtful that the 1871 census person is the right John Gordon ( and the 1871 census actually says Gorden by the way ) ... the father is a tailor which does not match with the family stories as well

chrissiex, I take your point about everything you have said,but I was working under the assumption that you would only be interested in the proven known facts which I have given,
We still do not know if J.G. was ever married or not.
The connection between J.G. & Elizabeth Kidley is substanciated by her Grandaughter whom I have had computer contact with over the years.
However,lets see what the certificates reveal,that I have sent off for.
Please don't think that I do not appreciate all the time & energy that you researchers put in,on the contrary I think you all are doing a brilliant job.
Regards,
Peter.

Peter,

You say that one of the big problems that you still have is that you do not know the names of JG's parents.

Unlike Chrissie, I think that the 1871 probably is the correct John Gordon. Three days ago Ozibird offered this information as possibly being relative:

?????
1871 England Census
Name: John Gordon
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Son
Father's name: Henry Gordon
Mother's name: Catherine Gordon
Gender: Male
Where born: Croydon, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Croydon
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
Town: Croydon
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street Address: Southbridge Road

Registration district: Croydon
Sub-registration district: Croydon
Piece: 840
Folio: 104
Page Number: 25
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Gordon 34 - Tailor; Ireland
Catherine Gordon 25 - Rag Sorter; Ireland
Thomas Gordon 5 Months (the months seems to have been crossed out)
Mary Gordon 2
John Gordon 2

???
Marriages Jun 1864
Gordon Henry Croydon 2a 330
Sullivan Catherine Croydon 2a 330

You have in your possession the birth certificate of a John Gordon born in 1869 whose mother was named as Catherine. If the birth certificate shows that her maiden was Sullivan then it is reasonable to assume that the 1871 census, the marriage above and the birth certificate you have, are all connected.

I accept that that evidence alone does not positively guarantee that that John Gordon was the same John Gordon who was your grandfather. However when the above is read in conjunction with the 1901 census where the John Gordon' birthplace is indicated as Mitcham, which was within the Croydon registration district, then I think it is reasonable to assume that the Birth certificate is most probably that of the man who is recorded in the 1901 census. As a further pointer there was only one John Gordon born in Surrey c1867/8/9 recorded in the 1871 census.

I would suggest that most people researching their family history would most probably accept such "Proof" even though it is not 100% conclusive. There comes a point where we all have to accept that we may on occasion be forced to accept that we may never be able to prove something 100%.

If you think about it both you, I and indeed everyone else for that matter has only our mothers word that the man whose name appears on our birth certificate is indeed our biological father.

Whether that John Gordon was the same man who fathered Elizabeth Kidley's children I just do not know, hopefully the certificates that you are awaiting will provide more clues with which to work.