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Only just read these messages and at this late stage you may have solved your mystery. John Gordon (born in USA and son of Elizabeth Kidley) is buried in Monmouth (South Wales) cemetery. Elizabeth went on to marry Noah Vaughan (my great grandfather's brother). There was a huge age difference.

Love it!


Ozi

well we should add that Peter is not the first and won't be the last not to read the directions and to think we are all overpaid ;-)

<3 ( how's that one ? )

What a giggle.

Chrissie, you should have put ...

my organisation?? :-0 or even :-S

my organisation ?? :-D

Peter after all this time and you still think someone is being paid to help you here ????

there is a big capital letters post nailed to the top of this forum that explains things quite nicely


'I obtained the birth certificate for Nellie Ada Gordon and not a 3rd person'

I didn't say you got a birth certificate for a third person ... I said it sounded like information from a third party ...

I see now that in your private message to me ( very difficult to follow ... check your copy ... no spacing ... and you copied the same information into the message twice ) you referred to the certificate ... but I'm sorry very few of us in the 'organisation' here want to spend our time switching back and forth between a discussion thread and our inbox messages, so I was looking at the info here in the thread which simply referred to a certificate


Peter the people you are talking to are users of this website just like you who have paid our subscriptions to be able to help out other members in the discussion forums

and we get frustrated when people looking for help make things extra difficult by not giving information that is as clear and complete as possible !

Peter, just to point out that that none of us on this board are part of any organisation - we are not employees of Genes Reunited. We are purely paying members who happen to use our own time and various subscriptions to help out other members of our own free will.

As regards explaining what is required then Genes do say in the Help Clinic "Give as much detail as possible when explaining who you are trying to find. All known information will make it much easier for volunteer helpers to help you." If everyone bothered to read that then life would be a little easier for everyone.

Good luck in your search.

thanks for quick reply,now if somebody in your organisation had bothered to explain what was required when one made an enquiry such as mine life would have been a little easier for everyone.
If I may refer to my message of 04/09/11 para.3 J.G.'s son j.c.w. was baptised 09/08/1891,so it is reasonable to presume that the parents were present.The problem is that despite searching all the passenger lists from the U.S.A.to the U.K.& U.K.to U.S.A.I have come up with nothing!! Any ideas?
Llangattock Vibon Avel's IVA 1871-Bapt-158-194 baptism records show the parents as:-John & Elizabeth Gordon.

well there you go Peter you have the record in question and that is exactly what you did not say in the first reference to it, that is the principle ... stating that something exists is not the same as giving the actual information ... that has been the problem all through this thread hasn't it ?

the 'detailed info that (other people) require' when you ask other people for help is the info that you have and the source of the info ... -not- a mere statement that you have such-and-such info ...

you stated ''Birth cert. for one of four children by J.G.& Elizabeth Kidley' instead of giving the info that you have now given ... do you see the difference ?

that is what several people have tried several times to point out in this thread I think ... if you are actually asking for help to find something or to confirm a conclusion then you need to give the info you have and not just say you have info

but never mind, you have what you are happy with now and are not asking for help so we have become surplus to requirements :-)

I really would like to know about this principle you have mentioned?
Because as far as I see, all you have done regarding the last lot of information I sent, was to agree with it in great detail.

Also regarding the comment (hope -you- know Which child and What the birth certificate says, just for your own records and all ... because some third party saying 'I have a birth certificate and I know what it says' still doesn't mean anything !

Actually, I obtained the birth certificate for Nellie Ada Gordon and not a 3rd person!
The full details……….are as follows:- Certificate No WBXZ398173
Nellie Ada Gordon
Born 07 Dec 1894 at Well Cottage Llangattock Vibon Avel
Father John Gordon ( Gardener domestic)
Mother Elizabeth Kidley

This certificate substantiates The Kidley/Gordon connection

(The above information I already Sent to you on 4 Sep 2011 16:35 Have obtained birth cert.for Nellie Ada Gordon Dec.1894 daughter of Elizabeth Gordon(nee KIDLEY) & J.G.

If you would be kind enough to let me know exactly what detailed info you require when I ask for your assistance to help me in my research for the elusive John Gordon!

I would just like to add that I do not only rely on this site and others like it, I do take all this research seriously to the extent of visiting places like Winchester R/O, Surrey R/O Sussex R/O , Kew, London Family History Centre and The L.M.A. etc.

I'll just add this for any curious bystanders ... seems what Peter has reproduced is another second-hand account ...


1880

Name: Henry Gordon
Home in 1880: Woonsocket, Providence, Rhode Island
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Birthplace: Ireland
Relation to Head of Household: Self (Head)
Father's birthplace: Ire.
Mother's birthplace: Ire.
Occupation: Tailor
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Gender: Male

Henry Gordon 40
John Gordon 10
William Gordon 5
Ellen Gordon 3
Sarah Gordon 1


children Thomas and Mary were ... elsewhere ... it seems


Name: Catherine Gordon
Home in 1880: Cranston, Providence, Rhode Island
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Birthplace: Ireland
Father's birthplace: Ireland
Mother's birthplace: Ireland
Occupation: House Work
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Gender: Female



'Birth cert. for one of four children by J.G.& Elizabeth Kidley .'

I just don't know, you really don't seem to understand the principle, Peter :-)

I hope -you- know Which child and What the birth certificate says, just for your own records and all ... because some third party saying 'I have a birth certificate and I know what it says' still doesn't mean anything !

so for the rest of us I guess it has been a curiosity but our curiosity is not really going to be satisfied ...

Peter, J.G. is on the U.S.A.1880 census with Henry,William Ellen&Sarah at Woonsocket,Providence,Rhode Island Catherine in workhouse Cranston,Providence.Info. from Family search.org and Ancestry/library.com.J.G's family info.from passenger lists.Birth cert. for one of four children by J.G.& Elizabeth Kidley .

I don't think so either ................

once again Peter you have told us a load of facts but not where they come from

so if you really did want help verifying any of this information you need to do that

Still reading this with interest.

I don't think all the questions have been answered yet.

Ozi

thank you Peter ... I suggested that the content of the pm be put in the thread so we could see it in context :-)

that seems to make sense with the Noah Vaughan connection

do you have John in the 1880 census in the US ?


not this one ...

Name: John Gordon
Home in 1880: Arkansas River, Fremont, Colorado
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Birthplace: Scotland
Relation to Head of Household: Son
Father's Name: Henry Gordon c1842 coal miner
Father's birthplace: Ireland
Mother's Name: Catharine Gordon c1851
Mother's birthplace: Scotland

Henry Gordon 38
Catharine Gordon 29
Hanry Gordon 15
Rebecca Gordon 11 c1869 Scotland
John Gordon 6 c1874 Scotland
Dennis Maloney 35


because the age and the other children's names do not match ... and the parents are way too young ... but that is the only one I see in the US in 1880 with those parents and not born in the US ...

to:-Ozibird,M.C. Jonesey
Bet you all thought I had .disappeared,wrong! Here I am with the John Gordon update:- Have traced J.G's family as follows,Father Henry (1840),Mother Cathline(1843) both from Ireland.Married in June 1864 at Croydon.

Henry went to U.S.A. 22/06/1871,Cathline joined him 25/06/1873 with children:-Thomas H(1865) Mary(1868) and John(1870,this is J.G.)

J.G. remained in the states until after the U.S 1880. census.Have been unable to find him on any of the passenger lists for States to U.K. or U.K.to U.S.A.but he would have been back in the U.K.for the baptism of his son(John charles wilmington born 1890 in U.S.) at Llangattock Vibon Avel.

Have obtained birth cert.for Nellie Ada Gordon Dec.1894 daughter of Elizabeth Gordon(nee KIDLEY) & J.G.
also cert.of marriage of J.C.W.Gordon in 1915, Father's name Noah Gordon.The name Noah was that of the step-father Noah Vaughan

anyone else have any luck tracing the rest of the 1871 family ... that yes Ozibird posted three days ago and that was of course the one I was referring to ... ?

I find no deaths, marriages, census records ... possibly the family did return to Ireland or even go to the US and that John Gordon is the right one still ...........


for info to go with the 1871 census and the Gordon Sullivan marriage

Births Jun 1868
GORDON Mary Croydon 2a 231

and one of

Births Mar 1865 ( would have been 6 in 1871 census )
Gordon Thomas Croydon 2a 218
Births Mar 1866 ( would have been 5 in 1871 census )
GORDON Thomas H Croydon 2a 183


I don't think the issue here has to do with the well-known fact that a father named on a birth certificate ( mother's husband ) is not necessarily the child's father ... it has to do with identifying the person John Gordon who is named as father on a child's birth certificate


and I'm sorry Peter but

'The connection between J.G. & Elizabeth Kidley is substanciated by her Grandaughter whom I have had computer contact with over the years.'

still does not tell us What that connection is and How it was substantiated

we have no idea how the granddaughter determined that her John Gordon was your John Gordon ... we do not even know how she determined that she had a John Gordon or we must assume it is from one of the children's birth certificates although the children appear to have been GordAn ... and if so what it is about that John Gordon that matches your John Gordon

you do appreciate that I could tell you I have substantiated my direct descent from Adam and Eve and that would not help you evaluate the connection
:-)

Peter,

You say that one of the big problems that you still have is that you do not know the names of JG's parents.

Unlike Chrissie, I think that the 1871 probably is the correct John Gordon. Three days ago Ozibird offered this information as possibly being relative:

?????
1871 England Census
Name: John Gordon
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Son
Father's name: Henry Gordon
Mother's name: Catherine Gordon
Gender: Male
Where born: Croydon, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Croydon
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
Town: Croydon
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street Address: Southbridge Road

Registration district: Croydon
Sub-registration district: Croydon
Piece: 840
Folio: 104
Page Number: 25
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Gordon 34 - Tailor; Ireland
Catherine Gordon 25 - Rag Sorter; Ireland
Thomas Gordon 5 Months (the months seems to have been crossed out)
Mary Gordon 2
John Gordon 2

???
Marriages Jun 1864
Gordon Henry Croydon 2a 330
Sullivan Catherine Croydon 2a 330

You have in your possession the birth certificate of a John Gordon born in 1869 whose mother was named as Catherine. If the birth certificate shows that her maiden was Sullivan then it is reasonable to assume that the 1871 census, the marriage above and the birth certificate you have, are all connected.

I accept that that evidence alone does not positively guarantee that that John Gordon was the same John Gordon who was your grandfather. However when the above is read in conjunction with the 1901 census where the John Gordon' birthplace is indicated as Mitcham, which was within the Croydon registration district, then I think it is reasonable to assume that the Birth certificate is most probably that of the man who is recorded in the 1901 census. As a further pointer there was only one John Gordon born in Surrey c1867/8/9 recorded in the 1871 census.

I would suggest that most people researching their family history would most probably accept such "Proof" even though it is not 100% conclusive. There comes a point where we all have to accept that we may on occasion be forced to accept that we may never be able to prove something 100%.

If you think about it both you, I and indeed everyone else for that matter has only our mothers word that the man whose name appears on our birth certificate is indeed our biological father.

Whether that John Gordon was the same man who fathered Elizabeth Kidley's children I just do not know, hopefully the certificates that you are awaiting will provide more clues with which to work.

chrissiex, I take your point about everything you have said,but I was working under the assumption that you would only be interested in the proven known facts which I have given,
We still do not know if J.G. was ever married or not.
The connection between J.G. & Elizabeth Kidley is substanciated by her Grandaughter whom I have had computer contact with over the years.
However,lets see what the certificates reveal,that I have sent off for.
Please don't think that I do not appreciate all the time & energy that you researchers put in,on the contrary I think you all are doing a brilliant job.
Regards,
Peter.

still curious ........... re the 1871 census this looks like the birth of the son Thomas aged 5 in 1871

Births Mar 1866
GORDON Thomas H Croydon 2a 183

there is this death

Name: Thomas H Gordon
Birth Date: abt 1871
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1924
Age at Death: 53
Registration district: Croydon
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 2a
Page: 402

a possible marriage ?

Marriages Dec 1897
? GORDON Thomas Henry Fulham 1a 577
HOLLOWAY Carrie Fulham 1a 577
> Mellish Louisa Fulham 1a 577
Newberry Henry Charles Fulham 1a 577
Newbury Henry Charles Fulham 1a 577

who are in 1901

Name: Thomas Gordon
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Louisa Gordon
Gender: Male
Where born: Bombsy, Mhow ... Bombay

Civil parish: Fulham

Thomas Gordon 29 police constable
Louisa Gordon 29 born in Richmond Surrey


so .......... the death in 1924 would be that Thomas Henry whose birth is not in the English index



where was Thomas in 1881, 1891, 1901 ... and where were sister Mary and parents Henry and Catherine ?

I wonder whether this family returned to Ireland

I would actually be very doubtful that the 1871 census person is the right John Gordon ( and the 1871 census actually says Gorden by the way ) ... the father is a tailor which does not match with the family stories as well

Peter, surely it is apparent at least now that asking for help tracing someone without giving ALL the information you have about them is bound to waste people's time

the 1901 census shows the wife as Kitty, you knew her full name but did not bother to say ( I assume you have her name from a child's birth certificate and not just a death certificate )

it simply is not reasonable to try to trace someone without having all the known facts about them, which includes the name of their spouse certainly

knowing that John Gordon and his wife were not in fact married is also crucial information since the overwhelming reason why people were not married is that one of them was already married and finding such a marriage can be key

knowing the names that children of unmarried parents used in later life ( e.g. Violet ... who seems to be Ethel Violet ?? ) can also be important information


we still simply have no idea what seems to connect your John Gordon with the family in Monmouth ........