General Chat

I have a pay as you go very basic mobile phone, a tablet, a PC and a smartphone that my sister bought for me as she thought I needed it (I don't!)
I usually use the PC at home, and take the basic mobile with me.
The smartphone rarely moves, the tablet comes with me if I stay away from home.

What I find intriguing, is Google's attempts to 'track' me!
If I look at a map (on the PC), it quite often (wrongly) informs me where I am.
Other 'giveaways' are the 'Find singles in XXX' ads
I find I live in Reading, Chandler's Ford, Hastings and, occasionally Winchester!
Today, I live in Cowgrove, Wimborne, Dorset.
I'm going to make a note of where I 'live', and when the lockdown is over, those not too far away, I shall visit!
:-D :-D :-D

yeah Although I'm based in Peterborough I sometimes "dwell" in Chatteris....
Avg is not much more accurate either(thankfully)

according to some spam emails I am often available in Taiwan...

Today, I am (apparently) in Fareham! :-D

I have temp agencies that offer me work. If I'm interested, I send them my CV, (with my pay as you go mobile number) and the area I wish to work in.

A short while back, I was researching my dad's side of the family - 100% Cornish.
I started getting job offers in Cornwall from one agency!

A swift email was sent pointing out that I object to outside forces attempting to track/hack me through my internet browsing, before 'unsubmitting' future emails from them.

I have this too!! I actually find it funny. The furthest away I've been is Northern Ireland, and then they eventually got nearer home, and I now live in a succession of places within about 10 miles.

I think it is caused by my use of Google Maps, as I use them for looking at places from John o' Groats to Lands End and abroad. Each time I open it, I am living somewhere else!! :-D

That's interesting, Andysmum - do you use something you rarely take out to look up things?
Speaking to my sister tonight - who uses her smartphone to look things up, wherever she is - even her position can be wrong.

Makes you wonder about the Government's plan, via an app, to let you know if a potential coronavirus sufferer is near you! :-D
I mean if they 'potentially' have coronavirus, they should be at home.
There's also not much point in telling you there's a potential carrier in East Street, Southampton, when you're in East Street, Reading!

No, Maggie. All my computing is done on a desk-top at home. I haven't anything else, not even a smartphone!

Last time I looked up anything some distance away from home, it was a wedding venue in Lancashire (now postponed). The next time I opened Google Maps, it showed Prestonpans - which the last time I heard was in Scotland and nowhere near Lancashire!! :-S :-S

My sister uses he smartphone for everything - she blames the cookies!
Because we haven't downloaded the 'track' app - we're confusing the system!

Long may it last! :-D :-D :-D

All digital mobile phones used in the UK have an IMEI number. This cannot be changed. Even if the phone is blocked ( lost, stolen) any attempt to use it will register.

If the SIM is changed the IMEI remains the same. When a phone connects with a mast the IMEI number is one of the data items used to check the credentials. The location and ID of the masts is of course known to the operator.

This data can be used to track a phone in real time down to the resolution of a cell. This can vary from a at most a few hundred yards in Winchester to a mile or so in the boondocks. With 5G 50m at most.

Using triangulation in real time the police can follow suspects. The suspects of course know this hence "burner phones" which give the county lines people a false sense of invulnerability. With all phones the IMEI ID can be tracked even with the phone off. With older 3G phones the battery can easily be removed unlike most mobiles sold in the last 10 years.

Mobile phone major mapping apps do not use the IMEI number for geolocation for various reasons. For real time navigation they use a mix of GPS and ip location. This is extremely accurate when used on the road. Inside a house a modern mapping app will fall back on ip location which is usually good to a mile or so. Old 3G phones without GPS cannot give a very good location fix but the authoriites can of course use IMEI. GPS needs at least 6 data points.

If and when the government decides to use mobile phone tracking software then any movement advantages / restrictions will depend on possession of a registered 4G smartphone. Those who leave their phone at home / don't have one will fall into the no movement category. There has been no decision on this to date though several firms are running trials mostly based on cell location. .One is closely connected to a guy name of Cummings.

The government knows that any relaxation of lockdown is v unsafe without a lot of track and trace testing - for which it does not have anything like the resources needed - or smart phone apps. Yes, there are serious/horrendous civil liberty issues as well as the thorny question of provisioning phones and accounts. Care homes, rough sleepers and victims of UC come to mind.

The 3G data network is in the course of being closed down with a target date of 2022. That also applies to the 2G voice component in many countries such as Australia. In the UK 2G is used by the series 1 smartmeters and various device2device machines and is good for another 10 years. ISPs though are likely to stop supporting mobile 2G/3G sooner. They want the bandwidth to use with 5G.

Many modern 4G/5G mobile phones have a feature called wifi dialling whereby all cellphone connection features are enabled using a wifi router. This kicks in automatically if there is no signal, Unfortunately many ISPs see it as a sales feature and have not enabled it for all users. If the govt does decide on cellphone tracking then this will have to be a standard feature.

"It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen. "
G Orwell

Yes, but if it's a basic, unregistered 'pay as you go', will all the gumph apply?
I don't think so.

Also, why would 'they' want to track my PC?
It sits in the corner of the room, on what was my great grans sewing desk..
The furthest it travels is a couple of feet when I need to clean (or, as yesterday, decorate) behind it.

As for the smartphone - which usually stays at home - just used for 'Whatsapping' - it was bought and registered by my sister!

Read this

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/15/mass-electronic-surveillance-uk-app-lockdown-download

If the govt decides on such an approach then it is not so much a question of being tracked as the user proving status/location which will not be possible with old type basic phones. The wind is certainly blowing in that direction as ministers look for remedies to their failures back in Jan/Feb/March.

They have three options:
(1) relax lockdown and hope - likely to be a poor choice as Spain is soon to find out
(2) track and test - needs a massive number of people and tests which the govt has not got, will take months to get up and running ( this was mostly in place before 2010 ). V limited understanding of resulting stats amongst the govt and leading news orgs. Zero understanding of stats in the case of Raab, Johnson.
(3) phone app - quick n cheap, proven to work in S Korea, China
Onus largely on the user/employer, let's govt off the hook.

Whatever the future for basic 2G/3G phones is not rosy.

Wow! I know all that about tracking Rollo because I have started to watch all of the series of Spooks. Only joking, ha ha. ;-)

It's a good show, by the way, but then I am not into musicals and so-called reality shows.

In my opinion, the sooner they get the idiots off the streets, the better; those who think the rules don't apply to them.

As far as I am concerned they could put them all together in one big 'holding cell' then let's see how arrogant they feel.

I hope, our government does not lift restrictions too soon. China's cases are beginning to rise again since its restrictions were eased. I feel we shall have to reconcile ourselves to a long haul to stay safe. Sure, economies are feeling the pinch but that's a global phenomenon at the moment. Personally, I feel good governance begins with ensuring the health of citizens.

Well, strangely, I HAVE read about proposals for mass surveillance, in other publications.
You give a link to an article proposing what the author's opinion is to mass surveillance, then 'State' options - not your opinion, based on the article, but .three options the Government have! Wow! when did you become a Government advisor?
Chief scaremonger and patroniser, you definitely are!

As you posted the link, may I point out, that in this author's opinion, surveillance would have to be voluntary.

People like you fail to realise there are thousands of people in the country who don't have smartphones - it would be very difficult for the Government of an allegedly democratic country to behave the way Korea and China are.

I am def not a supporter of any phone tracking system re CoronaV19.

One of the reasons is that the govt would be very tempted to retain some aspects of it permanently. I wonder how many of the current emergency powers will eventually go and how many will lurk in dusty musty corridors of Whitehall where they will be copy n pasted into obscure legislation and S.Is by parliamentary draughtsmen. The original DORA passed Aug 1914 is still with us after all.

Nevertheless we have a PM who got us into a deep hole through unwillingness and dilly dally in calling a lockdown when it would have done most good. (SERS 2003 was cut off at the pass by prompt action coordinated by WHO. This time populist governments dragged their feet. )

Long term lockdown is simply not tenable . The main chance of a bio treatment is using ACE2 as a means of destroying the virus spikes rather than the classic approach of an attenuated form of the virus.. That is well over a year away.

Meanwhile the lockdown does not save many lives just "flattens the curve" so the NHS ( but not the care homes or community nurses ) can cope and ministers images don't look too bad.

From where they are now govt options are invidious.
Full lockdown (after the upcoming 90 day extension) will heavily damage the economy, people's mental health, children and our democracy.
Repeated mini lockdowns with mini peaks will drive people nuts and the economy into ruin ( if any of it survives the upcoming 3 month extension.)

The government could and should use the current and next lock downs to establish a system of find and destroy the virus by using and extending what is left of the old PH crisis system. It would mean getting a lot of people back up to speed, working test kits and recognition that C91 will be defeated by treating it as the series of local outbreaks it is rather than a uniform national problem.

Instead, led by Hancock and the behavioral modelling gang a simplistic approach using smart phones and one time "have you have the virus" test is being seriously considered. It could already be in place but the 3.5million test kits did not work - not sensitive enough and Cummings was indisposed. This 3.5M was the greater part of Hancocks 100 000 / day promise.

I am not "doom mongering" just pointing out the b-y obvious that to say the least pf it the UK is up the creek, no poddle. In the context of MW's tracking post those without a basic smart phone could find themselves in difficulty even if the scheme was "voluntary". Those without a test status of green or no phone would rapidly find themselves excluded and/or unable to travel, rent, book a meal, work etc. As an example the refusal of UK Govt to give EU citizens some form of ID card is creating lots of serious problems.

If you have better answers to end the lockdown than those that Hancock & Co are considering then send them to the HQ at Porton Down, Salisbury.

I am v tempted to move to the wilderness. However the broadband is too slow there and O.H. wants to keep her job. So I hide until the wee small hours. As OH works for the co-op we don't have much of a food shopping problem. I certainly could not keep the show on the road without a decent smartphone and v quick broadband.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0rio3IPXXU

tarde venientibus ossa

South Korea is a very democratic country.
North Korea has barely got around to admitting it has a problem.

You might care to consider who has his finger on the button and the cheque book in his back trouser pocket despite being second in the last election by over 6 million votes. Democracy ?

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/donald-trump-peter-alexander-coronavirus-press-conference

I am well aware of how the Government works, and it's views, but Johnson is only Prime Minster, not quite the Fuhrer.
If you bothered to read my previous posts you will see how I view Hancock's idea of an app - initially explained (by Hancock) as an app to tell you if anyone around you has coronavirus.
It has since been explained as an app to tell you if someone you've been in contact with has gone down with coronavirus symptoms - not coronavirus - just symptoms, because, of course, without a test, who knows?
I presume the app will only contact those whose numbers you have on your phone - about as useful as a chocolate fireguard
Hancock also assumes a person who had coronavirus symptoms wouldn't, themselves, contact those they'd been in close proximity with just before their self diagnosis.
If this is the Government's initial attempt at surveillance, it has the skill and subtlety of Trump!

.

Further details of tracing/tracking for coronavirus - with details - like the need for testing first, and explaining how unprepared the UK is!


https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/nhs-coronavirus-tracing-app-hancock?ref=hpsplash

Buzzfeed is hardly a reliable source of anything. Its main function is to make money from advertising. As truth sells badly and Buzzfeed do OK the conclusion is obvious. Online news that does tell the truth eg Financial Times are close to going bust. The best thing to do with Buzzfeed is to dump it along with Quora.

At this time the government has no agreed plan at all for post lockdown/reducing lockdown. There are a lot of competing ideas. Phone tracking apps are just one of these. That said the PHE/NHS version is so poor that only Hundred thousand Hancock could consider it as a realistic candidate. It is claimed that data will be anonymised BUT the method proposed allows events to be de-anonymised. Adaptation of an off the shelf app is more likely.

For myself the downside of such an app outweighs the upside. Moreover once such an app ( virus ? ) has invaded the UK governing space it would morph into all kinds of other nudge nudge apps. Priti Patel's Home Office is keen on the idea for instance.

Unless there are some serious signs of setting up a convincing location based testing system post lockdown then it would seem that it is to be herd immunity by another name. If you are over 60 don't bother applying.

Any road don't imagine the govt cannot track any phone it wants just because mapping apps location reporting on old phones is a mess. They can and do.

Your last sentence rings a bell, Rollo.

As I mentioned earlier, Spooks! :-D :-D :-D

Highly entertaining but we all know there are forces at work that we know little, if anything, about.

I don't know how I missed the series when it was televised, probably workload.

I am at the start of Series 6 and I've only found one clearly obvious discordant note so far - not bad for all those episodes.

There may be more so I shall watch more keenly in future.

We have ways and means ALWAYS ..... :-D

I am sometimes surprised at the access to the methods used by the teams in "Hunted"

RTR - you may not regard 'Buzzfeed' as a reliable source - but those the reporter spoke to undoubtedly know more than you!

I'd also like to point out that the one relevant link you put, was someone's OPINION. One columnist's opinion, which you jump on and exaggerate out of all proportion, implying it's 'fact'. A bit like Trump.
It may have been 'The Guardian', but she provided not one iota of evidence.

From the Buzzfeed article:
"Jason Bay, the senior director of the Singapore government’s digital services agency, added: “You cannot ‘big data’ your way out of a ‘no data’ situation. Period.”

We also need to do more testing.

The last sentence says it all:
"The Department of Health and Social Care, NHSX, and PHE declined to provide on-the-record comments for this story."

I wonder why?