General Chat

We must not forget the unprincipled, of course; those for whom boundaries and rules do not exist.

Bobtanian, thank you. I shall take a look.

RTR, many things are being 'considered' by this Government.
Very few come to proper fruition - full PPE for example.

As Sue has said, and as the article I quoted says, without testing - it's useless!

Yes, a few idiots may download the app - some people believe the more cr*p they have on their phone, the more 'technology savvy' they are, and they deserve all they get - but anyone with a modicum of sense wouldn't.

Joy Louise:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunted_(2015_TV_series)

This was my reply on the thread that's just been deleted by RTR

If anyone had knowledge of the hoops that GCHQ had to jump through to get Home Office authority to track even people of interest they wouldn't assume (wrongly) that this is a simple exercise.

Data collection and analysis is only as good as the accuracy of reporting and it can never be accurate in tracking covid19 victims and presumed possible victims via proximity. The technology doesn't exist and it will be ineffective because it wasn't implemented from day one. Add to that no testing and you see the problem.

I have not seen Hunted, Bobtanian.

Should I put it on my list of things to watch while confined to barracks? :-D

1 phone tracking for C-41 is a fact in some democratic countries
2 it is def being considered by UKGov but no decisions have been taken
3 I am and always have been against it

wherever you did your speed reading course ask for a refund.

Have we gone 'off track' RTR , or are we just trying to be 'clever'?

YOU were the one with the surveillance theory, and it's potential necessity.
Are you now admitting your scaremongering was just the usual tripe?

I missed most of Spooks first time around as I was abroad and watching BBC TV via VPN was in its infancy even if you had a good enough connection. Now it is just the sort of antidote to reality that people need.

What always amazed me with Spooks is (a) they can always get a high speed connection onto their mobiles even deep with the deep concrete canyons of the City of London and even the offices (b) their ability to crack logins in moments (c) access to a never ending network of CCTV (d) provision of upmarket expensive wheels for all ranks. If this was reality money laundering, terrorism, the City of London and West End estate agents would come to an instant stop.

I wonder what people think the good folks at Nine Elms do other than the D.T. crossword? Maybe the Scaly Backs know.

In dreams ...

RTR - you may not regard 'Buzzfeed' as a reliable source - but those the reporter spoke to undoubtedly know more than you!

I'd also like to point out that the one relevant link you put, was someone's OPINION. One columnist's opinion, which you jump on and exaggerate out of all proportion, implying it's 'fact'. A bit like Trump.
It may have been 'The Guardian', but she provided not one iota of evidence.

From the Buzzfeed article:
"Jason Bay, the senior director of the Singapore government’s digital services agency, added: “You cannot ‘big data’ your way out of a ‘no data’ situation. Period.”

We also need to do more testing.

The last sentence says it all:
"The Department of Health and Social Care, NHSX, and PHE declined to provide on-the-record comments for this story."

I wonder why?

I am sometimes surprised at the access to the methods used by the teams in "Hunted"

Your last sentence rings a bell, Rollo.

As I mentioned earlier, Spooks! :-D :-D :-D

Highly entertaining but we all know there are forces at work that we know little, if anything, about.

I don't know how I missed the series when it was televised, probably workload.

I am at the start of Series 6 and I've only found one clearly obvious discordant note so far - not bad for all those episodes.

There may be more so I shall watch more keenly in future.

We have ways and means ALWAYS ..... :-D

Buzzfeed is hardly a reliable source of anything. Its main function is to make money from advertising. As truth sells badly and Buzzfeed do OK the conclusion is obvious. Online news that does tell the truth eg Financial Times are close to going bust. The best thing to do with Buzzfeed is to dump it along with Quora.

At this time the government has no agreed plan at all for post lockdown/reducing lockdown. There are a lot of competing ideas. Phone tracking apps are just one of these. That said the PHE/NHS version is so poor that only Hundred thousand Hancock could consider it as a realistic candidate. It is claimed that data will be anonymised BUT the method proposed allows events to be de-anonymised. Adaptation of an off the shelf app is more likely.

For myself the downside of such an app outweighs the upside. Moreover once such an app ( virus ? ) has invaded the UK governing space it would morph into all kinds of other nudge nudge apps. Priti Patel's Home Office is keen on the idea for instance.

Unless there are some serious signs of setting up a convincing location based testing system post lockdown then it would seem that it is to be herd immunity by another name. If you are over 60 don't bother applying.

Any road don't imagine the govt cannot track any phone it wants just because mapping apps location reporting on old phones is a mess. They can and do.

Further details of tracing/tracking for coronavirus - with details - like the need for testing first, and explaining how unprepared the UK is!


https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/nhs-coronavirus-tracing-app-hancock?ref=hpsplash

I am well aware of how the Government works, and it's views, but Johnson is only Prime Minster, not quite the Fuhrer.
If you bothered to read my previous posts you will see how I view Hancock's idea of an app - initially explained (by Hancock) as an app to tell you if anyone around you has coronavirus.
It has since been explained as an app to tell you if someone you've been in contact with has gone down with coronavirus symptoms - not coronavirus - just symptoms, because, of course, without a test, who knows?
I presume the app will only contact those whose numbers you have on your phone - about as useful as a chocolate fireguard
Hancock also assumes a person who had coronavirus symptoms wouldn't, themselves, contact those they'd been in close proximity with just before their self diagnosis.
If this is the Government's initial attempt at surveillance, it has the skill and subtlety of Trump!

.

South Korea is a very democratic country.
North Korea has barely got around to admitting it has a problem.

You might care to consider who has his finger on the button and the cheque book in his back trouser pocket despite being second in the last election by over 6 million votes. Democracy ?

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/donald-trump-peter-alexander-coronavirus-press-conference

I am def not a supporter of any phone tracking system re CoronaV19.

One of the reasons is that the govt would be very tempted to retain some aspects of it permanently. I wonder how many of the current emergency powers will eventually go and how many will lurk in dusty musty corridors of Whitehall where they will be copy n pasted into obscure legislation and S.Is by parliamentary draughtsmen. The original DORA passed Aug 1914 is still with us after all.

Nevertheless we have a PM who got us into a deep hole through unwillingness and dilly dally in calling a lockdown when it would have done most good. (SERS 2003 was cut off at the pass by prompt action coordinated by WHO. This time populist governments dragged their feet. )

Long term lockdown is simply not tenable . The main chance of a bio treatment is using ACE2 as a means of destroying the virus spikes rather than the classic approach of an attenuated form of the virus.. That is well over a year away.

Meanwhile the lockdown does not save many lives just "flattens the curve" so the NHS ( but not the care homes or community nurses ) can cope and ministers images don't look too bad.

From where they are now govt options are invidious.
Full lockdown (after the upcoming 90 day extension) will heavily damage the economy, people's mental health, children and our democracy.
Repeated mini lockdowns with mini peaks will drive people nuts and the economy into ruin ( if any of it survives the upcoming 3 month extension.)

The government could and should use the current and next lock downs to establish a system of find and destroy the virus by using and extending what is left of the old PH crisis system. It would mean getting a lot of people back up to speed, working test kits and recognition that C91 will be defeated by treating it as the series of local outbreaks it is rather than a uniform national problem.

Instead, led by Hancock and the behavioral modelling gang a simplistic approach using smart phones and one time "have you have the virus" test is being seriously considered. It could already be in place but the 3.5million test kits did not work - not sensitive enough and Cummings was indisposed. This 3.5M was the greater part of Hancocks 100 000 / day promise.

I am not "doom mongering" just pointing out the b-y obvious that to say the least pf it the UK is up the creek, no poddle. In the context of MW's tracking post those without a basic smart phone could find themselves in difficulty even if the scheme was "voluntary". Those without a test status of green or no phone would rapidly find themselves excluded and/or unable to travel, rent, book a meal, work etc. As an example the refusal of UK Govt to give EU citizens some form of ID card is creating lots of serious problems.

If you have better answers to end the lockdown than those that Hancock & Co are considering then send them to the HQ at Porton Down, Salisbury.

I am v tempted to move to the wilderness. However the broadband is too slow there and O.H. wants to keep her job. So I hide until the wee small hours. As OH works for the co-op we don't have much of a food shopping problem. I certainly could not keep the show on the road without a decent smartphone and v quick broadband.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0rio3IPXXU

tarde venientibus ossa

Well, strangely, I HAVE read about proposals for mass surveillance, in other publications.
You give a link to an article proposing what the author's opinion is to mass surveillance, then 'State' options - not your opinion, based on the article, but .three options the Government have! Wow! when did you become a Government advisor?
Chief scaremonger and patroniser, you definitely are!

As you posted the link, may I point out, that in this author's opinion, surveillance would have to be voluntary.

People like you fail to realise there are thousands of people in the country who don't have smartphones - it would be very difficult for the Government of an allegedly democratic country to behave the way Korea and China are.

Wow! I know all that about tracking Rollo because I have started to watch all of the series of Spooks. Only joking, ha ha. ;-)

It's a good show, by the way, but then I am not into musicals and so-called reality shows.

In my opinion, the sooner they get the idiots off the streets, the better; those who think the rules don't apply to them.

As far as I am concerned they could put them all together in one big 'holding cell' then let's see how arrogant they feel.

I hope, our government does not lift restrictions too soon. China's cases are beginning to rise again since its restrictions were eased. I feel we shall have to reconcile ourselves to a long haul to stay safe. Sure, economies are feeling the pinch but that's a global phenomenon at the moment. Personally, I feel good governance begins with ensuring the health of citizens.

Read this

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/15/mass-electronic-surveillance-uk-app-lockdown-download

If the govt decides on such an approach then it is not so much a question of being tracked as the user proving status/location which will not be possible with old type basic phones. The wind is certainly blowing in that direction as ministers look for remedies to their failures back in Jan/Feb/March.

They have three options:
(1) relax lockdown and hope - likely to be a poor choice as Spain is soon to find out
(2) track and test - needs a massive number of people and tests which the govt has not got, will take months to get up and running ( this was mostly in place before 2010 ). V limited understanding of resulting stats amongst the govt and leading news orgs. Zero understanding of stats in the case of Raab, Johnson.
(3) phone app - quick n cheap, proven to work in S Korea, China
Onus largely on the user/employer, let's govt off the hook.

Whatever the future for basic 2G/3G phones is not rosy.

Yes, but if it's a basic, unregistered 'pay as you go', will all the gumph apply?
I don't think so.

Also, why would 'they' want to track my PC?
It sits in the corner of the room, on what was my great grans sewing desk..
The furthest it travels is a couple of feet when I need to clean (or, as yesterday, decorate) behind it.

As for the smartphone - which usually stays at home - just used for 'Whatsapping' - it was bought and registered by my sister!