Genealogy Chat

I have seen 2 different surnames used on certs before and it has almost always been because the person using them was either Illegit and gained a step father who's name they also used or the father of the person died while they were very young and they used their step fathers name also...

Have those possibilities been looked into for Martha?

The death cert?Which one do you mean you will send for please?
I can not find one in 1879 to correspond with his age or area at death then on any site for any refs to send for it so as I am so nosey and impatient please could you give what you have for then or did it just come from someone elses tree?
The only one to suit as I said would seem to be the one in 1915.....

But as many know I have been known to be wrong...Not often tis true,but known to happen on occasion....

Fans.... :-D

I will be editing on here....

From Familysearch.
groom's name: Thomas Nicholls
bride's name: Martha Pattrick
marriage date: 1836
marriage place: All Saints Sudbury, Bts, Suffolk, England

1841
NICHOLLS, Thomas M 25 1816 Suffolk
NICHOLLS, Martha F 25 1816 Suffolk
THEOBALD, Sarah F 15 1826 Suffolk
Sudbury...........Probably Marthas half sister???Shame the 1841 does not give relationships

Civil Parish:
All Saints Municipal Borough:
Sudbury Address:
Church Street, All Saints, Sudbury County:
Suffolk

1851
NICHOLLS, Thomas Head Married M 37 1814 Hand Loom Weaver (Silk)
Sudbury
Suffolk
NICHOLLS, Martha Wife Married F 37 1814 Hand Loom Weaver (Silk)
Sudbury
Suffolk
NICHOLLS, Thomas E Son M 8 1843 Scholar
Sudbury
Suffolk
NICHOLLS, Henry W Son M 5 1846 Scholar
Sudbury
Suffolk
NICHOLLS, David A Son M 2 1849 Scholar
Sudbury
Suffolk
NICHOLLS, Albert J Son M 0 (6 MOS) 1851
Sudbury
Suffolk
Registration District:
Sudbury

Civil Parish:
St Peter Municipal Borough:
Sudbury Address:
Burkitts Lane, St Peter, Sudbury County:
Suffolk

1861
NICHOLLS, Martha Head Widow F 47 1814 Silk Weaver
Sudbury
Suffolk
NICHOLLS, Thomas Son Unmarried M 18 1843 Carpenter
Sudbury
Suffolk
NICHOLLS, Henry Son M 14 1847 Shoe Maker
Sudbury
Suffolk
NICHOLLS, David Son M 12 1849 Errand Boy
Sudbury
Suffolk
NICHOLLS, Albert Son M 10 1851 Scholar
Sudbury
Suffolk
NICHOLLS, Peter Son M 7 1854 Scholar
Sudbury
Suffolk
NICHOLLS, Marth Daughter F 5 1856 Scholar
Sudbury
Suffolk
RADLEY, Precilla Boarder Unmarried F 17 1844 Silk Weaver
Bulmer
Essex
Registration District:
Sudbury

Civil Parish:
All Saints Municipal Borough:
Sudbury Address:
Garden Place, All Saints, Sudbury County:
Suffolk

1871
NICHOLLS, Martha Mother F 56 1815 Suffolk
NICHOLLS, Albert J Son M 20 1851 Suffolk
NICHOLLS, Peter Son M 18 1853 Suffolk
NICHOLLS, Martha J Daughter F 15 1856 Suffolk
THEOBALD, Samuel Brother-In-Law M 40 1831 Essex(Bulmer)
THEOBALD, Frederick Nephew M 19 1852 Essex

Registration District:
Shoreditch

Civil Parish:
Shoreditch Municipal Borough:
Address:
Bridport Place, Shoreditch County:
London, Middlesex

I think that in this instance you will find that Martha and Samuel are step brother and sister and Brother/sister in law was often used on census to denote that relationship..
The same as you often see Daughter/son in law to denote STEP relationship on census...

Hence her using either name as her maiden name...Her birth name and her step fathers name..

Deaths Mar 1858
Nicholls Thomas Sudbury 4a 311

Possible from Familysearch

name: Martha Pattrick
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 16 Jul 1813
baptism/christening place:
ALL SAINTS,SUDBURY,SUFFOLK,ENGLAND
birth date: 04 Jul 1813
father's name: Samuel Pattrick
mother's name: Elizabeth



name: Samuel Theobald
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 23 Mar 1827
baptism/christening place: Bulmer, Essex, England
father's name: Samuel Theobald
mother's name: Elizabeth

OR

name: Samuel Theobald
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 21 Jun 1829
baptism/christening place: INDEPENDENT,BOCKING,ESSEX,ENGLAND
birth date: 26 Aug 1828
father's name: John Theobald
mother's name: Elizabeth

I would like a fresh pair of eyes on the following:

Checking on the 'mysterious' William Shakspear Quick, I looked at various trees on Ancestry and established his father was Joseph born 1801. His mother was Charlotte Branning.
On the 1841 Census, Joseph is shown as aged 40 and Charlotte aged 30.

The marriage banns have their marriage in 1821 - Charlotte 10!!!

1841 Census shows first child aged 14, so Charlotte was 16 when she gave birth.

Any thoughts?

After Emmerdale..~~~~~

What say you Sir on the Martha Nicholls/Theobald/Pattrick story that I have put forward???

Thank you
Fans...

Old


I just do not trust trees on ancestry ............. too many people post information without any kind of documentation, then others copy that information ....... and one never knows what is right or wrong.


IF that tree that you are referring has documentation ............. such as information taken from the actual Parish register (before 1837) or bmd certificates (after July 1 1837), then that is another story.



I found the following on the new beta.familysearch site ....... information taken from the Parish register

The url for this site is www.familysearch.org/#form=advanced-records


England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Name: William Shakespear Quick
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 10 Jun 1832
Baptism/Christening Place: SAINT MARY,NEWINGTON,SURREY,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 02 May 1831
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Joseph Quick
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Charlotte
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C05563-2
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 307703
Reference Number:


England Marriages, 1538–1973 for Joseph Quick

Groom's Name: Joseph Quick
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Charlotte Branning
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 28 Nov 1821
Marriage Place: Saint George The Martyr,Southwark,Surrey,England
Groom's Father's Name:
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name:
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M02244-4
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 307692
Reference Number:





Please also remember that ages on the 1841 Census were rounded down to the nearest 5 for all adults over the age of 15


so Jospeh could have been between the ages of 40 and 44

and Charlotte aged 30-34.



sylvia

This is the baptism of James Jospeh Quick

England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 for Joseph Quick

Name: James Joseph Quick
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 05 Aug 1827
Baptism/Christening Place: SAINT MARY,NEWINGTON,SURREY,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 05 Oct 1825
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Joseph Quick
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Charlotte
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C05563-2
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 307703
Reference Number:




but it looks as if they actually had at least one child before James Joseph

Name: Charlotte Quick
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 13 Oct 1822
Baptism/Christening Place: SAINT MARY,NEWINGTON,SURREY,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 21 Sep 1822
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Joseph Quick
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Charlotte
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C05563-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 307699
Reference Number:




sylvia

This looks like the daughter's Charlotte marriage, from ancestry


London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Charlotte Quick
Spouse Name: Joseph Watts
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 29 Dec 1846
Parish: St Mary at Lambeth
County: Surrey
Borough: Lambeth
Father Name: Joseph Quick
Spouse Father Name: John Watts


from image:-

Charlotte

Father occupation:- deceased, (??? Cregbeater????)

Address:- Gt Regent Street (possibly 94 Regent Street)




???? mother Charlotte's death


London, England, Deaths and Burials, 1813-1980

Name: Charlotte Quick
Record Type: Burial
Estimated Death Date: abt 1847
Burial Date: 15 Jul 1847
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1803
Parish or Poor Law Union: Lambeth St Mary
Borough: Lambeth
County: Surrey

from image:-
address:- 93 Regent Street



sylvia

Cor,you is nearly as good as me now Sylvs..:P

I wont interfere here as you are doing an excellent job.... :-D

Glad to see you back in the saddle so you MUST be feeling betterer...Lovely jubbley.....

Night all
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I presume you have this from the 1851 Census, but it may help Fanny, or others

Charlotte with her husband and daughter, and 3 of her siblings

Name Age
Joseph Watts 34 House Painter
Charlotte Watts 27
Joseph Watts 2
Desdemona Quick 11 Sister <<<<<< someone has added alternative information to this:- b.ca 1842, Surrey
Henry Quick 17 b.ca 1834, not known where, no occupaton shown
Edwin Quick 13 b.ca 1838, Surrey added


Desdemona appears on the 1861 census, as a Scholar at the South Metropolitan School (her name is transcribed as Desdeorona ..... I have sent in a name change)






sylvia

The only other place I can find Desdemona is on a birth registration on freebmd


Births Mar 1843 (>99%)

Quick Desdemona Lambeth 4 278



I can find no other mention of her





sylvia

To go back to the question of Charlotte Branning's age ............ I think it is far more likely that she was 16 to 18 when she married, and thus about 19 when she had their first child Charlotte.



This fits with the death of a Charlotte Quick in 1847 at about age 44.



I can find no trace of Joseph after the 1841 census, although daughter Charlotte says he was deceased when she married ................ and she certainly has her 3 younger siblings living with her in 1851.




My only word of advice to you would be to re-iterate what I said above ...........



do not trust trees on ancestry unless they demonstrate that they have documentary evidence


remember that ages on the 1841 for anyone over the age of 15 is usually rounded down to the nearest 5


and, remember that ages and birth years on ALL other censuses can be as much as 2 years out depending on when the census was taken vs the person's birth year ................... and can also be complicated by the fact that many of our ancestors were illiterate, and did not know how old they were!




As an added note .......................... on William Shakespear's baptism record on ancestry, Joseph says he is a Carpenter.





s
xxx

Fans


Fanks, I fink :-)



anyway, I'm off now ...... time to go and write the grocery shopping list for OH to go shopping (after he's been to the bank and emptied the account, of course :-D )



see you later




s
xxx

hello
i am still an avid reader of your thread
but todayi would join in as we had our first frost today it was white over but sunny and cold now

may i wish sylvia and ron all the best

i think i should say i live in lincolnshire

keep up the good work

sally w :-)

Thank you Sally for your good wishes, Ron is fast asleep in the garden in beautiful sunshine, the weather here is glorious at the moment.
Evelyn XX

An absolutely beautiful day here in the North East (of England)

Fans/Sylvia

Sorry to take so long to reply, but was out Friday night and today was spent in glorious sunshine at the RHS Garden at Wisley where the Cyclamen Society was holding its Winter Show. As the Membership Secretary I felt I should make an appearance and it was such a wonderful day with all the sunshine.

I will check the stepfather answer to Martha Pattrick to see whether the person who has her on his direct line has discovered anything since our last correspondence - will report back. Seems to fit the bill.

With regard to W S Quick, I am still puzzled. On the 1881 Census Caroline is shown as a widow. On the 1891 Census William Quick is shown as a widower.
The death certificate I will send for is the one noted on the Quick Family tree and says he died in Feb 1879 in Hackney. I will send an email to the tree owner to see if I can establish the reasoning for thinking this is the correct death.

Many thanks for your efforts - they are appreciated.

Arthur

Here is what the owner of that tree is saying is evidnence for the death of William Shakespear Quick ................. the entry on ancestry's England & Wales, Freebmd Death Index. She/he doesn't apparently have a copy of the death certificate to prove it


England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915 about William Quick

Name: William Quick
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1879
Age at Death: 47
Registration district: Hackney
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1b
Page: 411 (click to see others on page)



I have found the following entry on London Marriages though .... and assume that Frederick is Willaim Shakespear Quick's son

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Frederick William Shakespear Quick
Age: Full Age
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Spouse Name: Miriam Emily Bradley
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 29 Oct 1882
Parish: St John the Evangelist, Walworth
County: Surrey
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: William Shakespear Quick
Spouse Father Name: Henry William Bradley


from image:-

Frederick
Of Full Age
Bachelor
Occupation:- Fir Wood Cutter
Address:- Lions Buildings
Father occupation:- Fir Wood Cutter


Witnesses:- Henry William Bradley and Mary Ann Quick


It does NOT say that William Shakespear Quick was deceased





sylvia

and here is Frederick in 1881, with Caroline and multiple siblings


Name: Frederick Quick
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Caroline Quick
Gender: Male
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Camberwell
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 13 & 15 Odell Street

Occupation: Wood Cutter

Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: St George

Caroline Quick 40
William Quick 51
Frederick Quick 20
Mary Ann Quick 18
Caroline Quick 15
James Quick 12
William Quick 10
Alice Quick 3
Alfred Quick 1



sylvia

here's Desdemona's baptism ................ she's caroline on the 1881 Census!!

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Caroline Desdemona Quick

Name: Caroline Desdemona Quick
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1865
Baptism Date: 14 Feb 1865
Father's Name: William Quick
Mother's Name: Caroline Quick
Parish or Poor Law Union: Walworth St Peter
Borough: Southwark


from image:-

Born December 11 1863
Address:- 4 Pilgrim (???) Street
Father occupation:- Wood Cutter




Interestingly, I can find baptisms for William (b. 1870, baptised 1873), Thomas Alfred (b. 1873, baptized 1873 on same day as William)) ....... but not for James (b.ca 1869) or for Alice (b.ca 1878) and Alfred (b.ca 1880)


I wanted to see who was said to be Alice and Alfed's father!





My thought is exactly the same as Fanny's .......................... I think the William on the 1881 Census, despite what the census says about Caroline being a Widow and William "Brother" ...................... is William Shakespear.


But who knows why he's showing as "Brother"!





sylvia

Sally


nice to see you on here!


Thank you for your good wishes for myself and Ron.



s
xxx