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I am struggling to find Thomas Bernard Burton c1880 in the 1939 Register.

This is him with his family in 1911

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Devonshire Arms Upper Langwith Mansfield, Upper Langwith, Nottinghamshire, England

Thomas Bernard Burton Head Married Male Publican Farmer 31 1880 Notts Nether Langwith
Nellie Burton Wife Married Female - 32 1879 Notts Worksop
>>>>>>>Kathleen Burton Daughter - Female School 8 1903 Notts Mansfield
Olive Burton Daughter - Female School 6 1905 Notts Mansfield
Zemsie Burton Daughter - Female - 3 1908 Derbys Upper Langwith
Joyce Burton Daughter - Female - 1 1910 Derbys Upper Langwith
John Moorey Servant Single Male Farm Labourer General 37 1874 Derbys Scarcliffe
Edith Ledburg Servant - Female General Servant Domestic 14 1897 Yorks Bowers Ollerton

This is an earlier link when I was looking for info on his daughter Kathleen so please don't waste your time looking for anything other than Thomas in 1939

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1358469




Thank you to any one who takes the time to look


Chris

I know you said not to look for anything other than 1939, but -

the Thomas Bernard Burton whose birth record you give can't be the one born in Nether Langwith.

The Bridgnorth one again:

Births Dec 1881 (>99%)
BURTON Thomas Bernand Bridgnorth 6a 589

But your Thomas will be this one, baptised 1880 - before the Bridgnorth one was born:

Thomas Bernard Burton
in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name: Thomas Bernard Burton
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 1880
Baptism Place: Upper Langwith, Derby, England
Father: William Burton
Mother: Maria
FHL Film Number: 1041909
Reference ID: - 2:GHC4Z6



Bernard Burton
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Bernard Burton
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1880
Relation: Son
Father's name: William Burton
Mother's name: Maria Burton
Gender: Male
Where born: Nether Langwith, Nottinghamshire, England
Civil Parish: Upper Langwith
Ecclesiastical parish: Upper Langwith
Town: Upper Langwith
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Registration district: Mansfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2649
Folio: 87
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
William Burton 36
Maria Burton 36
Minnie Burton 14
Bernard Burton 11
Florence Mary Burton 6
Ethel Burton 2
Emily Phillips 17

Thank you Argyllgran I really appreciate that. I would have thought I'd have found his birth registration.



Chris

This is his birth. Worksop reg district includes Nether Langwith.

Tom Bernerd Burton
in the England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: Tom Bernerd Burton
Registration Year: 1880
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Worksop
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume: 7b
Page: 45


And possibly his death??

Tom B Burton
in the England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Tom B Burton
Birth Date: abt 1880
Date of Registration: Jun 1967
Age at Death: 87
Registration district: Buckrose
Inferred County: Yorkshire East Riding
Volume: 2a
Page: 18

Thank you for the birth details. Yes that's the correct death as I have a copy of his will.


Chris

Perhaps if you search 1939 for him as Tom, rather than Thomas?

(I don't have a sub to FMP to look at the several entries for people called Tom Burton - or Barton, as the 1939 has many mistranscriptions)

I've tried that and also using his middle name too but nothing seems to be right.


Chris

His birth certificate might help to get his full date of birth- but remember:

"The Register was not meant to record members of the armed forces and the records do not feature:

British Army barracks
Royal Navy stations
Royal Air Force stations
members of the armed forces billeted in homes, including their own homes

However, the records do include:

members of the armed forces on leave
civilians on military bases"

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/

Could he have already signed up? Do you know who the closed records are for on the 1939 register that have Kathleen on?

Thanks AustinQ I was hoping that at his age he wouldn't still be in the forces.


Chris

I agree with AustinQ that you need his birth cert for exact DOB - though there are a large number of Tom or Thomas Burtons to sift through.

Was the 1939 registration the same as a census in that a person was recorded at whatever address they happened to be at on National Registration Day? (I should know that.) Or would someone be registered at their normal home address even if they weren't there that day?

Just wondering if Tom was away from home for a lengthy period, or maybe only overnight.
But as AustinQ says, you also need to know who the closed records are for - he might be with his wife after all.

I only know the first closed record relates to Kathleen's daughter Rosemary, I've no idea who the other three relate to.

Apart from someone being a minor, what other reasons would a record be closed please.


Chris

The record is closed if they are unsure that the person is deceased. So one of them may be Thomas and they have not connected the death record to him.

As a general rule; Records of people younger than 100 and still alive, or who died after 1991 are officially closed.

So if someone HAS died since 1991 or a record is closed because they have not recorded the death it is possible to request it be opened.

"You need to prove that individuals listed in the records are deceased in order to submit your request to us and for the record(s) to be opened. We can only accept a copy of an official death certificate or overseas equivalent so please ensure you have this documentation before proceeding. The only suitable form of evidence is an official death certificate (files supported: .jpg, .png, .gif). If we do not receive this valid proof of death, we will be unable to proceed with a search"

Jude

(relating in family?)

Chris :)

14 July 1939 - Sheffield Daily Telegraph - Sheffield, South Yorkshire

Child Dies From Scalds
The death occurred in Mansfield General Hospital yesterday of Greta Burton aged 3½ years, of the Devonshire Arms, Langwith, who was severely scalded a month ago when she fell into a tub of hot water.


Births Mar 1936 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
Burton Greta Wholey Mansfield 7b 129


Deaths Sep 1939 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------
Burton Greta 3 Mansfield 7b 58


Marriages Sep 1934 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Burton Thomas B Wholey Mansfield 7b 268
Wholey Edith E Barton Mansfield 7b 268


(perhaps couple below)

1939 Register (Find My Past)
Devonshire Arms Hotel , Blackwell R.D., Derbyshire, England
Edith E Burton 16 Nov 1909 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Thomas D Burton 05 Aug 1912 Male General Farmer & Licensed Victualler


Births Mar 1910 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------
WHOLEY Edith Emily Southwell 7b 501


Births Sep 1912 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Burton Thomas B Carson Mansfield 7b 196


Marriages Jun 1898 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------
Burton Tom Bernard Chesterfield 7b 1476
Carson Nelly Chesterfield 7b 1476


Derbyshire Registrars Marriage Index Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) Thomas Bernard
Last name Burton
Marriage year 1934
Parish Scarcliffe St.Leonard
Place Scarcliffe
Spouse's first name Edith Emily
Spouse's last name Wholey
Reference PC46/04/032
Register Office Chesterfield
County Derbyshire

(Father)

Derbyshire Registrars Birth Index Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) TOM BERNERD
Last name BURTON
Birth year 1880
Place CARBURTON & CLOWNE
Reference CARBB/16/479
Register office Chesterfield
Subdistrict Carburton & Clowne
County Derbyshire
Record set Derbyshire Registrars Birth Index


Derbyshire Registrars Marriage Index Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) Tom Bernard
Last name Burton
Marriage year 1898
Parish Register Office
Place Chesterfield
Spouse's first name Nelly
Spouse's last name Carson
Reference RO/32/090
Register Office 393
County Derbyshire

just because your first post is muddled, this is the 1939 household

Kathleen Nichols (Bower) 25 May 1902 Female Udd Single 361 4
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Nellie Burton 05 Nov 1876 Female Udd Married 361 2


if they were estranged and he was presenting himself as a widower, this could be a possibiity in 1939 ... the dob matches the quarter of birth registration

Burton Household (1 Person)
Bury New Road , Salford C.B., Lancashire, England
Tom Burton 21 Apr 1880 Male Petrol Salesman Widowed

there doesn't seem to be another death that would match that person

of course I agree that getting his birth cert for his exact dob is important :-)

Thank you Chris Ho that's something to look into.

Thank you JoonieClooney I don't know what happened there, I've edited it now. It looks like a birth certificate is needed.

Thanks everyone for your help


Chris

(perhaps Derek might be able to shed more light, or more details from Baptism)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1191073?d=asc

Chris :)

(don't forget to give him your link for Reference)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1358889?d=asc

Nellie Burton died 18/5/1950 of 174,Southwell -Road west Mansfield wife of Thomas Bernard Burton effects £605 to the said Thomas B Burton retired farmer.

So they were still together and wasn't they also buried together.

Maryb.

Tom's burial:

Thomas Bernard Burton

Name: Thomas Bernard Burton
Birth Date: 1880
Birth Place: Nether Langwith, Nottinghamshire, England
Death Date: 3 Jun 1967
Death Place: East Riding of Yorkshire, England
Cemetery: Retford Road Manton Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place: Worksop, Bassetlaw District, Nottinghamshire, England
Has Bio?: N
Spouse: Ellen Burton
Children: Olive Pykett
Joyce Clayton


Had daughters Kathleen and "Zemsie" predeceased him?
(Zemsie is Jennie in Ancestry's transcription of 1911 census, and also in the parish register of her birth, but she's Zennie in GRO Index at both birth and marriage.)

EDIT: Also at her death - and she didn't die before Tom:

Zennie May Riley
in the England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Zennie May Riley
Birth Date: 10 Sep 1907
Date of Registration: Jan 1994
Age at Death: 86
Registration district: Newark
Inferred County: Lincolnshire, Nottinghamshire
Register Number: 4C
District and Subdistrict: 6882
Entry Number: 288

And on looking again at image of 1911, she is indeed Zennie.

the way the 1939 seems to go, from checking the preceding household (schedule 360, Gaston Reuben Wilson + 2 closed records) and where the next household (362) starts, Nellie's household (361) is actually listed in the record book as

closed
Nellie Burton
closed
Kathleen Bower/Nichols
closed

Ordinarily it would be the male head of household listed first

do you know who the other closed individuals are?

it seems to me that Tom might be the closed record ahead of Nellie, the first name listed in the household, and his record just never got updated

I don't know whether this kind of oversight happens - he was born 1880 so is obviously deceased - but it could be worth checking

have you considered applying to open the record?

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk//PaidSearch/FOI1939Register

Ah, now having looked at findagrave's site, I see that Joyce and Olive are listed as "calculated relationship", so the fact they're mentioned isn't any official listing, but just what the person who contributed the details to findagrave thought.