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My maternal ggg grandmother Elizabeth was born in Harlow, Essex, England in 1800. She died in Lewisham, Kent (now SE London) in 1885. Her occupation was laundress.

She married John NORMAN (born about 1793 in Cambridgeshire, England) about 1820 and lived from her marriage until her death in Sydenham, Kent.

Elizabeth and John had 11 children and possess their Census sightings for 1841 to 1881. She was a widow by the 1861 Census.

I'm looking to establish Elizabeth's maiden name and would appreciate advice on how to do this without resorting to purchasing a marriage certificate. This will then serve to search for her mother and so further my maternal line.

I have been unsuccessful in obtaining a response from potential descendants of John NORMAN on GenesReunited.

Gordon

Just for ref. is this the family in 1861?

Name: Elizabeth Norman
Age: 61
Estimated Birth Year: 1800
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Harlow, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Lewisham
Ecclesiastical parish: Sydenham St Bartholomew
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation: Laundress

Condition as to marriage: Widow

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Sydenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 70
Piece: 416
Folio: 61
Page Number: 11
Household Members:
Name Age
Elizabeth Norman 61
Isabella Norman 35
Eliza Norman 22
John Norman 19
George Norman 16
Williams Sims 12
Arthur Norman 13

Same family in 1851

Name: John Newman
[John Norman]
Age: 58
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1793
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Newman
Gender: Male
Where born: Cambridgeshire, England
Civil Parish: Lewisham
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Sydenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 41
Piece: 1591
Folio: 511
Page Number: 11
Household Members:
Name Age
John Newman 58
Elizabeth Newman 51
Isabella Newman 25
Eliza Newman 13
Henry Newman 10
John Newman 8
George Newman 6

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Daisy Cottage, Wells Road, Lewisham, London, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Elizabeth Norman Head Widow Female 61 1800 Laundress Harlow, Essex, England
Transcription
Isabella Norman Daughter Unmarried Female 35 1826 Laundress Sydenham, Kent, England
Transcription
Eliza Norman Daughter Unmarried Female 22 1839 Laundress Sydenham, Kent, England
Transcription
John Norman Son Unmarried Male 19 1842 Gardener Sydenham, Kent, England
Transcription
George Norman Son Unmarried Male 16 1845 Gardener Sydenham, Kent, England
Transcription
Williams Tims - - Male 12 1849 Errand Boy Berkshire, England
Transcription
Arthur Norman Grandson - Male 13 1848 - -

Hi.
You can't get BMD certs before 1837, so no decision to make!
Have you tried Familysearch?
Jan

Birth cert. of one of the children would give you her maiden name.

baptism of John but unfortunately doesn't give mmn

Name: John Norman
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 16 Oct 1842
Birth Place: Sydenham, Kent, England
Father: John Norman
Mother: Elizabeth Norman
FHL Film Number: 288421
Reference ID: p. 80, No. 638


Georges neither:-

Name: George Norman
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 23 Mar 1845
Birth Place: Sydenham, Kent, England
Father: John Norman
Mother: Elizabeth Norman
FHL Film Number: 288421
Reference ID: p. 3, No. 21


Eliza
Name: Eliza Norman
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 18 Mar 1838
Birth Place: Sydenham, Kent, England
Father: John Norman
Mother: Elizabeth Norman
FHL Film Number: 288421
Reference ID: p. 41, No. 328

????

Births Mar 1838 (>99%)
NORMAN Eliza Lewisham 5 270

Births Dec 1842 (>99%)
NORMAN John Lewisham 5 291

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Wells Road, Lewisham, Kent, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
John Norman Head Married Male 58 1793 Stable Man Cambridgeshire, England
Transcription
Elizabeth Norman Wife Married Female 51 1800 Laundress Harlow, Essex, England
Transcription
Isabella Norman Daughter Unmarried Female 25 1826 - Sydenham, Kent, England
Transcription
Eliza Norman Daughter Unmarried Female 13 1838 Scholar Sydenham, Kent, England
Transcription
Henry Norman Son - Male 10 1841 Scholar Sydenham, Kent, England
Transcription
John Norman Son - Male 8 1843 Scholar Sydenham, Kent, England
Transcription
George Norman Son - Male 6 1845 Scholar Sydenham, Kent, England

????

Name: John Norman
Titles and Terms (Original):
Event Date: 14 Jan 1926
Event Place: Road Dist 4, Scott, Illinois
Gender: Male
Marital Status:
Race:
Age: 82
Birth Year (Estimated): 1844
Birth Date: 14 May 1843
Birthplace: England
Father's Name: John Norman
Father's Titles and Terms:
Father's Birthplace: England
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Day
Mother's Titles and Terms:
Mother's Birthplace: England
Occupation: Retired Farmer
Residence Place:
Address:
Spouse's Name:
Spouse's Titles and Terms (Original):
Spouse's Birthplace:
Burial Date: 16 Jan 1926
Burial Place: Winchester
Cemetery:
Informant's Name:
Additional Relatives:
Digital Folder Number: 4008164
Image Number: 2378
GS Film number: 1613169
Reference ID: 3090



Citing this Record:
"Illinois Deaths and Stillbirths, 1916-1947," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NQH3-2D8 : accessed 21 February 2016), John Norman, 14 Jan 1926; Public Board of Health, Archives, Springfield; FHL microfilm 1,613,169.

Name: Jonathan Norman
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Day
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 16 Nov 1828
Event Place: Cambridge, England
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name:
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I07693-1
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 1040430
Reference ID:



Citing this Record:
"England Marriages, 1538–1973 ," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N63R-Y5S : accessed 21 February 2016), Jonathan Norman and Elizabeth Day, 16 Nov 1828; citing Cambridge, England, reference ; FHL microfilm 1,040,430.

The couple could have married anywhere and as there are lots of possible marriages around about 1820, to be absolutely sure which is the correct one, I'm afraid you may have to buy a copy of one of the birth certificates to be sure of getting the correct one.

Do you know when and where the youngest of their children was born?


Have you followed all the children through the census records?
Sometimes you find them living with, or having relatives stay with them, which could give a clue to their mother's maiden name.

Thank you to everyone who has replied.

All Elizabeth's children were born in Sydenham, Lewisham, Kent which is now South East London.

I may just have to purchase a birth certificate.

could thi be the marriage

Name John Newman
Spouse's Name Elizabeth Radford
Event Date 1824
Event Place Caldecote Or Caldecot, Cambridge, England

Believe the youngest child was Susanah born in 1821 per the 1841 census.

Is it necessary to obtain the first born's birth certificate to be sure of the mother's maiden name? I would prefer to have the certificate of my next generation maternal ancestor who was Elizabeth born in 1833.

Birth certificates only issued from 1837. Best you can hope for for births prior to then would be a baptismal record.

Safc has posted possible births for Eliza and John. Using those references you could order one of the certificates from the GRO to find the mother's maiden surname

I'm confident that I've found my maternal great greatgrandmother Elizabeth NORMAN, born 1833 in Sydenham, Kent in the 1851 Census. She is recorded as being niece to the ROSE family and living in Brompton, Middlesex.

Not sighted the actual Census on Ancestry but presumably she would have been recorded as niece to the male head of the houshold who was always a ROSE and a relation to her mother i.e. the elusive maiden name?

this looks like the census for 1851 but name is rice not rose but the age for elizabeth is 1833

George Rice
England and Wales Census, 1851
Name George Rice
Event Type Census
Event Date 1851
Event Place Kensington, Middlesex, England
Registration District Kensington
Residence Note Lower Grove
Gender Male
Age 16
Occupation Butcher
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Birth Year (Estimated) 1835
Birthplace Brompton, Middlesex
Page Number 46
Registration Number HO107
Piece/Folio 1469 / 208
Affiliate Record Type Household
HOUSEHOLD

ROLE

GENDER

AGE

BIRTHPLACE

John Rice Head M 57 Brompton, Middlesex
Mary Rice Wife F 55 Harlow, Essex
Mary Rice Daughter F 19 Brompton, Middlesex
George Rice Son M 16 Brompton, Middlesex
Thomas Rice Son M 15 Brompton, Middlesex
Elizabeth Norman Niece F 18 Sydenham, Kent

this is the 1841 census looks like they could be in the workhouse

Name Elizabeth Norman
Event Type Census
Event Date 1841
Event Place Lewisham, Kent, England
Residence Note Well'S Lane
Gender Female
Age 8
Age (Original) 8
Occupation Null
Birth Year (Estimated) 1833
Birthplace Kent
Registration District Lewisham
Book Number 12
Parish Lewisham
County Kent
Page Number 24
Registration Number HO107
Piece/Folio 484/16
Affiliate Record Type Institution

HOUSEHOLD

ROLE

GENDER

AGE

BIRTHPLACE

John Norman M NULL
Elisebeth Norman F NULL
Susanah Norman F NULL
Charles Norman M NULL Kent
William Norman M NULL Kent
William Norman M NULL Kent
Elizabeth Norman F NULL Kent
Rebecka Norman F NULL Kent
Eliza Norman F NULL Kent
Heny Norman M NULL Kent
Isabella Norman F NULL Kent

As Mary RICE, wife, is from Harlow Essex per the 1851 Census she will be the relation to my Elizabeth NORMAN and not Mr Rice.

Back to the drawing board for Elizabeth's maiden name!