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Hello Everyone yet again.

Here's another update regarding Frank sutton and his family.

I sent for the marriage between Ellen Sutton and Richard Hanson. This too was correct so I now have another marriage to add to the family.

The marriage took place at St Catherine's Church in Horwich on 20th March 1916 and was witnessed by James Hanson and Emily Sutton (daughter of Frank).

Thank you so much again for your fantastic assistance with this. I feel that sooner or later I'm bound to get a living Sutton family contact in Lancashire, this would be wonderful.

All good wishes to everyone who's helped in my search.

Regards
David

If Frank was a boilermakers labourer in Grantham he probably moved to Horwich to work at the locomotive works.

Hello mgnv and all friends who helped on this thread.

Thank you again for all of this information. I'm certainly interested in keeping a look out on the Lancashire BMD in case there are any other updates. I'm toying with the idea of sending for another marriage certificate for that of Ellen Sutton & Richard Hanson as the marriage took place in St Catherines which is the same as Frank & Martha's church where they married.

The marriage certificate of Frank Sutton & Martha Long in 1924 was correct for this family and there were two witnesses and these were siblings to Frank, they were Fred Sutton & Emily Sutton. So I at least know Fred & Emily where still alive in September 1924.

Thank you all again for this wonderful help and also the maps of the Wiltshire area which my ancestors came.

All good wishes
David

Some of this is redundant, as I didn't read all the posts properly, but anyways:

1861
House name Mills[Snells] Farm
Street Callowhill Lane
Parish Brinkworth
City or borough -
County Wiltshire
Country England
Municipal ward -
Parliamentary borough Cricklade
Hamlet Grittenham
Ecclesiastical district Bristol & Gloucester
Registration district Malmsbury
Registration Sub-District 1 Malmsbury Eastern
Enumeration district 9
Piece number 1277 Folio number 14 Page number 21

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Sutton Head Married Male 30 1831 Farmer 175 Acres Employing 4 Labourers Brinkworth, Wiltshire
Susanna Sutton Wife Married Female 33 1828 Farmer Wife Tilbury, Gloucestershire
Dick Sutton Son Scholar Male 6 1855 Scholar Grittenham, Wiltshire
Frederick Sutton Son - Male 5 1856 Scholar Grittenham, Wiltshire
Lucy Sutton Daughter - Female 4 1857 Scholar Grittenham, Wiltshire
Emily Sutton Daughter - Female 2 1859 - Grittenham, Wiltshire
Frank Sutton Son - Male 0[7m] 1861 - Grittenham, Wiltshire
David Dixon Servant - Male 12 1849 Groom Grittenham, Wiltshire
Sarah Woolford Servant Unmarried Female 14 1847 Nursemaid Lydeard, Wiltshire
[Although FMP transcribe as Mills Farm, I read it as Snells Farm - note the next h/h's on the page are Stranges & Goddards Farms which are ikm to N & 1.5km to NNE of Snells]

Go to http://www.streetmap.co.uk/ (zoom level 3) for a modern map or
http://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html (1885 1:2500) for an old map.
At either site, search for the coordinates 401700,181500

If I know the magic letters are SU for coords begining with the 4, 1 pair,
and I just round the easting down to the nearest km, i.e., to 401xxx, and the northing to 181xxx, then use the magic leters and lookup
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/SU0181
I get to see all pics they've got taken from coords 401xxx,181xxx
Of interest is
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3239184

On a methodological note, I went to the streetmap site and search for Brinkworth.
It sent me to an URL and embedded in the URL is the OS coords of the arrowhead, viz:
x=401500&y=184500
I went to a bigger map (still at zoom level 4) and swanned about until I spotted Snells Fm, 3km to S (the blue grid lines are 1km apart).
Normally, I count squares to see where I'm at, but tis time the grids are labelled nearby.
I then eye-ball the 100s within the grid square, so the farm's a bit E of centre, say 70% across, so to last 3 digits of the easting are 700. It's pretty central as regards the northing, so that's 500.

If 1861 is yours, then it's worth checking the local index, since one is available - see:
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd
Here we want: http://www.wiltshirebmd.org.uk/

Wiltshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1854
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
SUTTON Thomas HATHWAY Susanna Brinkworth, St Michael History Centre C7/1/158

Wiltshire Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1854 SUTTON Richard H Malmesbury East History Centre HATHWAY ME/8/366
1855 SUTTON Frederick J Malmesbury East History Centre HATHWAY ME/9/145
1857 SUTTON Lucy A Malmesbury East History Centre HATHWAY ME/9/375
1859 SUTTON Emily Malmesbury East History Centre HATHWAY ME/10/319
1860 SUTTON Frank Malmesbury East History Centre HATHWAY ME/11/190
1863 SUTTON Rowland T Malmesbury East History Centre HATHWAY ME/12/396

There's no local index for Grantham - North Lincs only covers the extreme N of Lincs.
There is one for Bolton, viz: http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Now they do list the mum's maiden surname on births pre-1911q3, butunfortunately, they're only up to 1890 for Horwich.
They made 3 updates in the last year (one last week), so it's worth checking back periodically to see if you can name either of the 2 dead kids Frank and Ellen had.

It is possible Ellen was 8m pregers for census, so you'll also need the mum's m.s. (or a baptism) to rule out
Births Jun 1911 (>99%)
Sutton Norman Bolton 8c 370

I don't see any Sutton-Tunbridge births in Bolton thereafter

Maybe:
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1895
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
SUTTON Lucy S 7 Horwich Bolton HOR/18/343

Maybe
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1912[q1]
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
SUTTON May 6 Horwich Bolton HOR/34/95

Maybe [would like a=67-ish]
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1965
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
SUTTON Frank 63 Bolton South Bolton BS/47/370

Maybe
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1916
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
SUTTON Ellen HANSON Richard Horwich, St Catherine Bolton 39/1/134

Maybe
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1924
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
SUTTON Frank LONG Martha Horwich, St Catherine Bolton 39/2/138
SUTTON Lily RIGBY Joseph Bolton Register Office or Registrar Attended Bolton RO/211/8

David ..............


thank you very much for the update!


I'm glad that you have now got the information you wanted



....................... and I'm glad that we were all able to help you :-)

Hello everyone

I just wanted to update you on the search for Frank Sutton and his family!

I received today a marriage certificate for Frank and Ellen's son today and the information is absolutely spot on!. May I say a very big thank you to each and everyone for their help and also to Joseph who found the marriage details of Frank Sutton & Martha Long.

I'm really over the moon for this wonderful help from you all and wish you all success in your future research of your family histories.

Kind regards
David

Hello Joseph

Thanks for your help with these marriages. I think I'll send for one of those and see what it comes up with.

You've been very kind and I'll update the board once I get this through.

Take care
David

?????
Possible marriages but you need the certificates to be sure.

Lancashire Marriage indexes

1916 SUTTON Ellen HANSON Richard Horwich, St Catherine Bolton 39/1/134

1924 SUTTON Frank LONG Martha Horwich, St Catherine Bolton 39/2/138

?????
Again it’s a long shot

Lancashire Death indexes

1927 SUTTON Lily 30 Horwich Bolton HOR/44/252

Dear Friends

Firstly may I say a very big thank you for all the help you've provided, this seems to be the same information that I found too but hope that something else may come to light at some stage.

I think that you're right in saying about a marriage certificate for one of the children, I will try to find which might be the best one to send for. I'll look on FreeBMD to see if there are any marriages near to Horwich that might lead me to this family.

I have known of the link with the Wiltshire Sutton's and the Hathway's as I found these way back in 2003 when I first started my family history research. My great grandfather was born in Brinkworth and this was the very starting point for me.

My ancestors were farmers down in Wiltshire and it seems as though they left their county of origin in the early 1870's. I'm told that farming trends took a turn for the worse at that time and they migrated northwards in search of work.

Frank Sutton originally moved to Lincolnshire with his parents and siblings and they each made their way to various parts of the country. Frank ran a pub (The Lincoln Tavern) in King's Lynn and my great grandfather (Rowland Tom Sutton) held licences for the The Woolpack. Tennyson Avenue, King's Lynn 30.06.1984, the Lord Nelson. Austin St in King's Lynn 13.10.1884 and eventually holding the licence for the Carpenters Arms, East Winch near King's Lynn from 1896 - 1912 with Sophie (my great grandmother). Most of their children were born at East Winch apart from a couple who were born in King's Lynn.

Anybody interested in any of Roland Tom Sutton's history, this can be seen on the link below.

http://www.eastwinchandwestbilney.co.uk/personal-vignette/the-sutton-family

Thank you soooo much again to each and every one of you for your fantastic help you've given, I am really grateful for the information provided.

With all kind wishes
David

Wiltshire Birth indexes for the years: 1860

SUTTON Frank Malmesbury East History Centre (Mother Maiden Name) HATHWAY ME/11/190


http://www.wiltshirebmd.org.uk/index.php


Wiltshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1854

SUTTON Thomas HATHWAY Susanna Brinkworth, St Michael History Centre C7/1/158

Chris :)

edits (the Snells)

http://www.wiltshire-opc.org.uk/Items/Brinkworth/Brinkworth%20-%20Post%20Office%20Directory%201855%20(with%20Grittenham).pdf

Sutton Thomas Farmer Snell’s Farm

it is difficult to find out when Frank and Ellen died .................... the names are pretty common!


and we do not know that they stayed in Horwich for the rest of their lives.


you may have to buy a marriage certificate for one or more of the children to see if Frank is shown as alive or deceased ........... although even that is not always accurate!

possible marriage for Frank Sutton and Ellen .................



you need to buy a birth certificate for one of the children to be absolutely certain of Ellen's maiden name


Marriages Jun 1886 (>99%)

Sutton Frank Grantham 7a 930
TUNBRIDGE Ellen Grantham 7a 930

AnnC's posting of Jane E Sutton is a red herring ............................ she is living in Horwich but is NOT a child of Frank and Ellen

Jane Ellen Sutton is child of Thomas and Margaret Sutton

In 1891, Frank wa a Boiler Maker's Labourer, living in Somerby, Grantham, Lincolnshire

They had 3 children, the eldest being Lucy T (or S), b. ca 1888


????????????

Deaths Jun 1895 (>99%)
Sutton Lucy Susannah 7 Bolton 8c 231

for our information


1911 Census


Frank Sutton 49 b.ca 1862, Wilts Snells (???)
Ellen Sutton 44 b.ca 1867, Bary St Edmunds, Suffolk, Assisting in the Business <<<<; should be Bury St Edmunds
Ellen Sutton 22 b.ca 1889, Grantham, Lancashire, Dressmaker
Emily Sutton 20 b.ca 1891, Grantham, At Home
Lily Sutton 14 b.ca 1897, Horwich, Lancashire, At Home Mother's Help
Master Frank Sutton 12 b.ca 1899, Horwich, School
May Sutton 5 b.ca 1906, Horwich, At Home
Master Frederick Sutton 3 b.ca 1908, Horwich, At Home


from image:-

Married 24 years
8 children born, 2 died, 6 still living



NOTE:-

Grantham, Lancashire should be Grantham, LINCOLNSHIRE

Name: Master Frederick Sutton
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1911
Gender: Male
Age: 3
Birthplace: Horwich, Lancashire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Bolton
Sub-District: Horwich
Parish: Horwich
County: Lancashire

Do you think this is his birth?

Births Sep 1860
SUTTON Frank Malmesbury 5a 31

Name: May Sutton
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1911
Gender: Female
Age: 5
Birthplace: Horwich, Lancashire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Bolton
Sub-District: Horwich
Parish: Horwich
County: Lancashire

Name: Frank Sutton
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 31 Mar 1901
Age: 2
Relationship to Head of Household: Son
Birthplace: Horwich, Lancashire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Bolton
Sub-District: Horwich
Ecclesiastical Parish: Holy Trinity Horwich
Civil Parish: Horwich
District/Parish/County: Lancashire

Name: Lily Sutton
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 31 Mar 1901
Age: 4
Relationship to Head of Household: Daughter
Birthplace: Horwich, Lancashire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Bolton
Sub-District: Horwich
Ecclesiastical Parish: Holy Trinity Horwich
Civil Parish: Horwich
District/Parish/County: Lancashire