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Don't blame you, I wouldn't want to be going to the length of DNA testing :-)

This is a link to the tree I was looking at - seems to have a Rosenberg connection looking at the owners name - although she isn't an active member:

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/15554090/person/377451051

Good luck with your research, and yes I would be interested to hear what you find :-)

Hi Flip

Thanks for this. More to take to Kew and look for.

We have seen a copy of Evelina's Will. She left everything to her remaining sons in Plymouth (not step-sons, probably insignificant unless you have a suspicious mind). It mentioned the house in Plymouth but not much more, even for those times.

George was my great grandfather, via John, who went off to sea in the Merchant Navy, before settling in Hampshire. I don't think I'll be worrying enough to consider DNA testing:-).

Allan

Sorry, forgot to mention - There is an Edward Archibald Neilson going to New York in 1917, his is a master mariner born 1861 in Liverpool. His contact in uk is wife "Mrs Neilson" (not very helpful) of 44 Station Road, Gr Marton, Bucks.

Hi Allan,

Yes I would be interested in the outcome, it's rather a complicated family - surely Emily would not be leaving a 1 month old baby behind when she visited her mother! That birth certificate could prove interesting!

Not sure which of the children you are descended from, but I think you may need to re-consider the maternal line :-D

It could be worth trying to order the will for Evelina, as her probate is of no help with it granted to solicitors. I believe it costs £6, but takes a while.

Hi Flip

Thank you for your information, we were also starting to see there is something strange going on here. The 1911 census for George senior clearly states Emily Richards was there (born in Camborne, not Poplar) with the children, while the other Emily is at her mother's house.

That said, after looking over the Ancestry public trees, there are errors in them. For example, the Probate records for Emily "R" in 1930 named her spouse as someone else, not George. George Henry (jr) was not born George Henry Richards, nor did he die in this country (to the best of my knowledge). In the official records we have seen, the Emily who married in Poplar was older than the Plymouth Emily, born in the same place and year as Evelina.

From other records, family lore and very personal comments made on a family tree produced BC (before computers), it may be possible the split was quite soon after the wedding, but hidden from the rest of his family some of whom were quite active and stern Salvationists (and that's another story!).

According to the self-appointed family archivist (and moral judge), George had already been "banished" as a black sheep from the family home (not true, according to direct family line testaments), so he probably feared the family more than the enumerator!

We'll follow up your details, to either confirm or eliminate the other Emilies, and obtain more official records to compare to the public family trees on Ancestry. There are still living relatives who would rather not know the outcome, based on earlier reactions when broaching this subject, so I would like to quietly draw a veil across this affair...at least until the next census becomes available :-). Thank you for all your time and hard work.

To finish, Jane has just asked me what kind of family has she married into. Just the usual, I said,...mad, bad (and good!), unmarried and possibly bigamous. But at least always honest - we come clean in the end!

P.S. If you like, I could keep you informed of any outcome.

Best wishes

Allan (and Jane)

Just in case it is the right person, she was living at 99 Lewisham Road in 1928 - Edwin Langdon was also living there. However, in 1922 she is at the same address, along with Edward Archibald Neilson ("a"), John Bird (A) and Lilian Maud Bird. There is a marriage for Emily E Richards in 1915 to Edward A Neilson in Greenwich.

The tree I found claimed that it was Eveline Rosenburg who was with George on the 1911 census - her birth place recorded as Cambourne, Cornwall, which checks out with her birth and earlier census - and Emily was definitly on the 1911 census with her mother and brother/sister. It stated she had been married 11 years, but no children.

Just wonder if they actually split long before he went to Devon?

ADDED: I can't see a death for either of the husbands, but there is a death for Lilian M Bird in 1957, age 80, and Emily E Neilson in 1959 age 87 - both are registered at Luton, Bedfordshire. Could be them?

Bingo ....I think. Emily Elizabeth Richards was a witness at her sister's marriage to John Bird (sailor) in 1914 in Greenwich. So I had a look for her sister Lilian Maud Bird - this is the 1937 ER for Greenwich:

Lilian Maud Bird
Year:1937
County or Borough:Greenwich
Ward or Division/Constituency:Greenwich
Street address:60 Lkwisiiam Road (actually Lewisham Road on image)

Living at the same address was her husband John ("a" next to his name with I think indicates an absent voter?)
Also at same address was Edwin William Langdon, but don't know who he is, and Emily Elizabeth Neilson - could this be her???

Added, Emily was not with Lilian in 1928/9, but appears with them from 1930 onwards.

Thank you so much for that information. You have been a realy great help.

All the best

Jane

There is a tree on ancestry, with details of George's marriage:

1932 16 Feb Age: 54 Marriage to Evelina Rosenburg
Registry Office, Plymouth, Devon.Evelina is a spinster and George is a widower.Residence at time of marriage is 43,Tresillian Street, Plymouth.

It also claims the 1911 census is wrong, and that Emily is with her mother in Poplar (address per 1901 census), and it looks like she is - although ancestry have mis-transcribed her name as Roberts although it says Richards on the image. She must have just been visiting though, as there appears to be a couple more births for them after 1911.

It is linking to a death in Plymouth in 1930 - but the index has her middle initial as R not E - so don't know if this is correct or a mis-transcription.

We will also see if there is a will for him. That may help.

All the best

Jane

Thanks Flip. As you say we will just have to be patient and wait for the cert.

We are going to the National Archives in july so we can check the divorce records then.

Thank you so much for all your help

Jane.

National archives hold some divorce records, coverage is:

The survival rate of divorce case files is:
•1858-1927: almost 100%
•1928-1937: 80%
•After 1937 : less than 0.2%

But I can't see one for your couple. She obviously had grounds though!

Think until the 2nd marriage cert arrives and you can ascertain his status it is difficult to know whether to search marriages or deaths (and there are quite a lot of both!)

No we haven't checked the Electoral rolls. This information was in a legal document acknowledging that George Henry Davey was his son. In the same document George Henry Senior stated he was living with his wife Emily Elizabeth Richards. This was the last time we have seen her mentioned anywhere.

They were living at Tresillian Street Plymouth.

Thanks

Jane

Am I right in assuming you have checked the local electoral rolls - as you know she disappeared in 1923 - or is this from some other record?

Evelina was still at the same address when she died in 1960, (born c1872):


Evelina Richards
Probate Date:25 Feb 1960
Death Date:29 Jan 1960
Death Place:Plymouth
Registry:Exeter

Probate was granted to 2 solicitors, so no real help.

He didn't live very long after the marriage:


George Henry Richards
Probate Date:22 Mar 1933
Death Date:9 Feb 1933
Death Place:Plymouth, Devon, England
Registry:London, England

Of 43 Tresilllian Street (same as 1911 census), probate granted to his widow Evelina, £1088 8s 2d

No not yet, but we are ordering it as we speak. I think they separated and she re married. I have looked at the two marriages for Emily E Richards to Walter Thomson in Kensington Dec 1936 and Frank E Dixon in Dec 1949 in Edmonton. I checked the deaths for Emily Dixon and Emily Thomson and the ages were wrong.

Perhaps she marriaed as Roberts?

Thank you so much for all your help Flip.

Jane

Have you got a copy of the 2nd marriage - it should state whether George was widowed or divorced.

This lady disapeared after 1923 from Plymouth. We cant find a death for her but her husband George remarried 1932.

Has anyone any suggestions as to how we can find out what happended to her.

Thank you for your help

Jane

Thank you so much for all your help Flip. We have added all this information to our records.

All the best

Jane