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Seem to be going round in circles here !!!

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ProfilePosted byOptionsPost Date

Margaret

Margaret Report 14 Jan 2014 11:00

I have a Frederick Vale Perkins b. 1828 Birmingham. On 1841 census his parents are given as Thomas 1806 and Sarah 1806 where Frederick appears as an only child aged 12. On 1851 census Thomas is still shown as having wife Sarah, Frederick is a student at Spring Hill College aged 22. Get to 1861 and no success with either. There is another Thomas Perkins born in the Leamington (1802-ish) area who marries an Eliza Jordan but my Perkins hailed from Birmingham. Any ideas how I can trace Thomas. Frederick himself re-appears later as a married man so I am not too concerned about him. Any suggestions welcome.

AnnCardiff

AnnCardiff Report 14 Jan 2014 11:06

just for reference

Name: Frederick Vale Perkins
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 02 Sep 1828
Christening Place: St. Phillip's, Birmingham, Warwick, England
Birth Date: 03 Aug 1828
Father's Name: Thomas Perkins
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C03112-6
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 502187
Reference ID: yr 1813-1832 p 535

PricklyHolly

PricklyHolly Report 14 Jan 2014 11:10

??

Mother Elizabeth...

Birmingham, England, Baptisms, 1813-1912
about Frederick Vale Perkins Name: Frederick Vale Perkins
Birth Date: 3 Aug 1828
Baptism Date: 2 Sep 1828
Baptism Place: Birmingham, St Philip, Warwickshire, England
Father: Thomas Perkins (Builder)
Mother: Elizabeth Perkins
Reference Number: DRO 25
Archive Roll: M40


ErikaH

ErikaH Report 14 Jan 2014 11:12

1841 census does NOT record relationships, and in later years, relationships are as to the HEAD of the household.

Unless you have documentary backup, there is no way of knowing if the woman who is the head's wife is the mother of his child(ren)

Where was THOMAS born?

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 14 Jan 2014 11:15

1841 - for info.
(Looks like the ages have been rounded down, so Thomas may not have been born 1806)

Name: Thomas Perkins
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Gender: Male
Where born: Warwickshire, England

Civil Parish: Aston
Hundred: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Street Address: Aston village

Occupation: Ind.

View Image

Registration District: Aston
Sub-registration District: Erdington
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1150
Book: 1
Folio: 7
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Perkins 35
Sarah Perkins 35
Frederick Perkins 12
Eliza Martin 20 F. S.
Thomas Butler 15 M. S.

AnnCardiff

AnnCardiff Report 14 Jan 2014 11:18

London Family History Centre > Film Catalogue > England ...
www.londonfhc.org/...p=England,England,Warwick,Birmingham... Cached
Bishop's transcripts for St. Philip's Cathedral, Birmingham, 1715-1832: Authors ... Warwick, England - Church records: Title: Parish registers for St. Chrysostom's ...


Birmingham, Warwick, England - Church records
Title: Bishop's transcripts for St. Philip's Cathedral, Birmingham, 1715-1832
Authors: Church of England. St. Philip's Cathedral (Birmingham)
Film Items: Microfilm 0428974 Baptisms, marriages, and burials, 1715-1775
Microfilm 0428975 Baptisms, marriages, and burials, 1768-1797
Microfilm 0428977 Baptisms, marriages, and burials, 1810-1812
Microfilm 0502182 Baptisms, marriages, and burials, 1813-1814
Microfilm 0502183 Baptisms, marriages, and burials, 1814-1817, 1819
Microfilm 0502184 Baptisms, marriages, and burials, 1819-1821
Microfilm 0502185 Baptisms, marriages, and burials, 1821-1824
Microfilm 0502186 Baptisms, marriages, and burials, 1824-1827
Microfilm 0502187 Baptisms, marriages, and burials, 1827-1829
Microfilm 0502189 Baptisms, marriages, and burials, 1832
Films not held on site which can be ordered for £7.50


Margaret

Margaret Report 14 Jan 2014 11:22

Reggie - I do not have exact location only Warwickshire which included both Birmingham and Leamington. What makes me puzzled about this is Frederick appearing - up to now - as an only child. My only thought is that he is possibly the youngest and that the 'marriage' to Elizabeth took place years before and she had died and Thomas re-married. Unfortunately I have not been able to prove this theory as yet.

PricklyHolly

PricklyHolly Report 14 Jan 2014 11:33

Is this the 1851 census you are referring to...

??


..1851 England Census
about Thomas Perkins Name: Thomas Perkins
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Perkins
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Berming, Warwickshire, England

Civil Parish: Cofton Hackett
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration District: Bromsgrove
Sub-registration District: Bromsgrove
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 14
Piece: 2047
Folio: 880
Page Number: 3
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Perkins 45 (Farmer of 40 Acres employing one man)
Sarah Perkins 44 (Newcastle)
Mary Blunn 28 (General Servant)

On the 1841 census posted.........Sarah was not born in County.



Margaret

Margaret Report 14 Jan 2014 11:36

Yes that is the 1851 census I was looking at. The 1841 also lists Thomas with wife Sarah. This is looking bleak. I think I will have to accept that I am not going to discover Thomas' father and/or mother in order to get further back. Thanks to everyone for trying to help.

ErikaH

ErikaH Report 14 Jan 2014 11:43

The baptism info - posted above - shows the mother's name to have been ELIZABETH

Didn't you see it? It's there twice....................

ErikaH

ErikaH Report 14 Jan 2014 11:47

..................and 1841 does not indicate that Sarah was married to Thomas......merely that she was living in the same household

See my remarks above about 1841

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 14 Jan 2014 11:51

Margaret, did Frederick give an occupation for his father when he married in 1865 please? Did he say if his father was deceased?

On the 1841 census Thomas doesn't give an occupation. It states he is Ind (indepenant?)

Also worth noting that the 1841 cesus doesn't give marital status. As Reggie says Sarah, while living in the same household as Thomas, isn't necessarily married to him. She may have been an unmarried sister living with a widowed brother..

Margaret

Margaret Report 14 Jan 2014 11:55

Yes Reggie I am aware that Elizabeth is shown as Frederick Vale Perkins mother and am quite happy about that. However Sarah is shown as 'wife' on 1851 census which was rather confusing - perhaps she was a second wife after the demise of Elizabeth. This is no longer of too much importance as the sole object was to try and discover the parentage of Thomas which looks hopeless now. However, I am accepting of that and will draw a line under this section of the tree. Thank you for your input.

rootgatherer

rootgatherer Report 14 Jan 2014 12:00

Margaret, I am not too sure that we can be sure that is the same Thomas and Sarah in 1841 and 1851 (I am not saying that they aren't though). It is just the different occupation for Thomas that is casting a little doubt for me.

As you say though sometimes we just need to accept that we can only go so far back with some branches of the tree with any certainty.

Margaret

Margaret Report 14 Jan 2014 12:13

Rootgatherer - I have just found a death for an Elizabeth Perkins in 1839 - two years before the 1841 census where Frederick is shown age 12 with a Thomas and Sarah. However, I am satisfied that Frederick's mother was Elizabeth and father Thomas and will leave it at that. Thank you so much for trying to help.

ErikaH

ErikaH Report 14 Jan 2014 12:15

How certain are you that the child found in 1841 is the man who married in Cumberland in 1865?

Do you have the marriage cert? (For father's occupation)

ErikaH

ErikaH Report 14 Jan 2014 12:16

Have you looked for a marriage for Thomas to Sarah?

Margaret

Margaret Report 14 Jan 2014 12:26

No I am not bothering to pursue the Sarah link as I am satisfied that Frederick's mother was Elizabeth. As for being certain of the marriage in 1865 to Mary Ann Fearon, this couple went on to have a daughter who in turn had a son and included 'Fearon' amongst his three christian names. Hence the link. ~Thanks for your help.

ErikaH

ErikaH Report 14 Jan 2014 12:26

I can't see the 1861 to which you refer....... please can you post it for info?

ErikaH

ErikaH Report 14 Jan 2014 12:27

So, you think Elizabeth may have died in 1839, but aren't looking for info about a marriage to Sarah....................the cert for which would name the man's FATHER