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Guy
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6 Mar 2013 11:42 |
Who were his parents? His marriage cert shows that aged 28, resident in Weston Super Mare, he married Ellen Ratcliffe on 16/04/1872 at Preston, Lancaster. His profession was given as a Toy Merchant but there is simply a line through "Father's name and profession". No "Thompson" was a witness. They had three children Margaret b 1873, Harry b1874 and Alice b 1877. I cannot find any trace in the census records of 1871 or earlier. He was one of my great grandfathers and I'd be glad of any help in tracing his ancestors.
Guy Mayers
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Mike *
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6 Mar 2013 11:44 |
If he didn't know his father it could be that he was born out of wedlock
Marriage: 16 Apr 1872 St John, Preston, Lancashire, England James Thompson - 28, Toy Merchant, Bachelor, Weston Super Mare Ellen Ratcliffe - 19, Spinster, Ribbleton Place Bride's Father: Henry Ratcliffe, Farmer Witness: Thos Yates; Alice Ratcliffe Married by Licence by: Edmund Lee Curate
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Potty
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6 Mar 2013 11:56 |
Do you know where he was born?
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Mike *
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6 Mar 2013 12:00 |
It would help to see the census you have found them on.
Is this the right family ?
1881 Name: Ellen Thompson Age: 29 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852 Relation: Head Gender: Female Where born: Wigan, Lancashire, England Civil parish: Worcester St John Bedwardine County/Island: Worcestershire Country: England Street Address: Malvern Rd Condition as to marriage: Windower (Widower) Education:
Employment status: View image Occupation: Lady Registration district: Worcester Sub-registration district: West Worcester
Ellen Thompson 29 - widow - born Wigan Margaret Ann Thompson 8 - Weston super Mare Henry Fisher Thompson 6 - Worcester Alice Thompson 4 - Worcester James Penney 58 - visitor
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Potty
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6 Mar 2013 12:03 |
Is this the family in 1881, with Ellen already a widow?
1881 England Census about Ellen Thompson Name: Ellen Thompson Age: 29 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852 Relation: Head Gender: Female Where born: Wigan, Lancashire, England Civil parish: Worcester St John Bedwardine County/Island: Worcestershire Country: England Street Address: Malvern Rd Condition as to marriage: Windower (Widower) Education:
Employment status: View image Occupation: Lady Registration district: Worcester Sub-registration district: West Worcester ED, institution, or vessel: 4 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 2913 Folio: 91 Page Number: 77 Household Members: Name Age Ellen Thompson 29 Margaret Ann Thompson 8 - b Westonsupermare Henry Fisher Thompson 6 Alice Thompson 4 James Penney 58
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Mike *
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6 Mar 2013 12:04 |
1891
Name: Ellen Thompson Age: 39 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852 Relation: Niece Gender: Female Where born: Standish, Lancashire, England Civil parish: Kidderminster Ecclesiastical parish: St George County/Island: Worcestershire Country: England Registration district: Kidderminster Sub-registration district: Kidderminster
James Penny 60 - widower Ellen Thompson 39 - widow - born Standish Lancs Margaret A Thompson 18 Henry F Thompson 16 Alice Thompson 14 James H Martin 27 - lodger
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jansmith
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6 Mar 2013 12:20 |
only death I can see that fits age ,after last child born and before 1881 census? Name: James Thomson Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845 Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1879 Age at Death: 34 Registration district: Newport Inferred County: Shropshire Volume: 6a Page: 457
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Potty
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6 Mar 2013 12:22 |
There is also this death - although the age is a couple of years out:
Deaths Mar 1879 (>99%) Thompson James 37 Kidderminster 6c 144
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Guy
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7 Mar 2013 11:36 |
Yes the 1881 census shows the recently widowed Ellen Thompson (nee Ratcliffe) and her three young children living at <alvern Rd, Worcester St John Bedwardine and the 1891 census shows they had moved to Spring Bank, Coventry Str Kidderminster. I'm also interested in the "James Penney" who was then living with them who family gossip says had three wives (long before divorce was a possibility!) I don't know where James Thompson was born, it seems there were rather a lot of births of that name and I have no clues as to District etc and 28 years back from April 1872 could be 1843 or 1844. There seem to have been 87 such births in 1843 and 78 in 1844, how do I find the right one assuming he gave his correct age at marriage? I have not got his death certificate since I don't think it will tell me much about his parents but I believe he died in Kidderminster in 1879.
Any help, clues or ideas would be much appreciated.
Guy Mayers
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Potty
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7 Mar 2013 12:04 |
Guy, he might not have been born in England - the census has James Thompsons of the right age born in Scotland and Ireland.
You could try looking at the images for every unmarried John Thompson on the 1871 and see if you can find one who is a Toy Merchant - bit of a big job though!
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Maddie
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7 Mar 2013 12:09 |
I wonder if this could be your James penney Name: PENNEY, James
Registration district: [?] Kidderminster
County: Worcestershire
Year of registration: 1845
Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's last name Not available before 1912
Volume no: [?] 18 MarriageFinderâ„¢: [?] James Penney married one of the following people Transcript BAKER, Phoebe VIEW GILES, Mary VIEW GOODMAN, Mary Ann VIEW THOMPSON, Sarah
1851
1851 England Census about James Penny Name: James Penny Age: 28 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823 Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Sarah Penny Gender: M (Male) Where born: Kiddr, Worcestershire, England Civil parish: Kidderminster Ecclesiastical parish: Kidderminster Town: Kidderminster County/Island: Worcestershire Country: England Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability: View image Registration district: Kidderminster Sub-registration district: Kidderminster ED, institution, or vessel: 1l Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 43 Piece: 2038 Folio: 289 Page Number: 10 Household Members: Name Age James Penny 28 Sarah Penny 35
Page no: [?] 405
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ErikaH
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7 Mar 2013 12:42 |
Until 1875, there were no penalties for not registering births.
As he was almost certainly illegitimate, the odds are that his birth wasn't registered.
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ErikaH
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7 Mar 2013 12:49 |
The 1871 census does not show anyone of the name and age residing in Somerset
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Guy
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7 Mar 2013 13:17 |
Thanks. The suggestion to try to find a James Thompson in the 1871 census whose occupation was a Toy Merchant doesn't seem to work since no occupations were given then. He could have been illegitimate, I was not aware there were no penalties for failing to register births until 1875!. He could indeed have come from Scotland or Ireland for all I currently know. I'm trying to find some earlier THompson connection and there don't seem to be too many direct clues BUT enter James Penney. Family gossip suggest that one of his wives was a Thompson, sister to James's dad. So "Maddie's" news on that is well worth researching and I will pursue that line - many thanks.
Guy Mayers
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ErikaH
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7 Mar 2013 13:46 |
Occupations were recorded on every census
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Potty
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7 Mar 2013 14:04 |
Guy, you need to look at the images, not the transcriptions, to find occupations. As Reggie said, they are recorded on all cencuses but only transcribed (on most sites) on the 1881, except for Scotland when on Ancestry they are transcribed on all the cencuses.
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Guy
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7 Mar 2013 22:49 |
Thank you, I've lean't a lot today. Regretably I haven't found a Toy Merchant in those James Thompsons born in 1844, sadly the "Mangle workers assistant" wasn't one of my relatives!
Guy
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mgnv
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8 Mar 2013 10:38 |
Looking at Ellen's side:
Using http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/ Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1849 Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference RATCLIFFE Margaret Standish Wigan & Leigh FISHER STND/4/339
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1851 Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference RATCLIFFE Alice Standish Wigan & Leigh FISHER STND/5/143
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1852 Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference RATCLIFFE Ellen Standish Wigan & Leigh FISHER STND/5/471
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1847 Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference RATCLIFFE Henry FISHER Elizabeth St. Wilfred, Standish Wigan & Leigh C28/1/481
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/ Marriage: 8 Sep 1847 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancashire, England Henry Ratcliffe - Of Full Age Farmer Bachelor of Langtree Elizabeth Fisher - Of Full Age Spinster of Bradley Hall Groom's Father: Henry Ratcliffe, Farmer Bride's Father: Richard Fisher, Farmer Witness: Alice Fisher; James Darbyshire Married by Licence by: Geo. Whitlock Curate Register: Marriages 1837 - 1848, Page 241, Entry 481 Source: LDS Film 1526141 [Looking at the half dozen marrs on each side of ours, Jas Darbyshire is a witness on 9 of the 12 - probably he's some rellie of the parish clerk]
Baptism: 27 Aug 1849 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs. Margaret Ratcliffe - daughter of Henry Ratcliffe & Elizabeth Abode: Langtree Occupation: Farmer Baptised by: E Layng Curate Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 200 Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 25 Jul 1852 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs. Ellen Ratcliffe - Daughter of Henry Ratcliffe & Elizabeth Abode: Langtree Occupation: Farmer Baptised by: W H Brandeth Rector Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 232 Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 17 May 1854 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs. Margery Ratcliffe - Daughter of Henry Ratcliffe & Elizabeth Abode: Langtree Occupation: Farmer Baptised by: James P Yeo Assit Curate Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 251 Source: LDS Film 1526140
1851 England Census Transcription Street: Parish:STANDISH City: County:Lancashire Division Of County:LANCASTER NORTHERN DIVISION Ecclesiastical District: Hamlet:STANDISH House Name:OLD HALE LANGTREE House Number: Parliamentary Borough: Municipal Ward: Registration District:WIGAN Enumeration District:4C Source: Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:2198 Folio:165 Page:20
HENRY RATCLIFFE 1774 77 HEAD ELLEN RATCLIFFE 1777 74 WIFE HENRY RATCLIFFE 1822 29 SON ELIZABETH RATCLIFFE 1815 36 DAUGHTER IN LAW MARGARET RATCLIFFE 1850 1 GRAND DAUGHTER ALICE RATCLIFFE 1851 0 GRAND DAUGHTER MARGARET RIGBY 1787 64 SISTER IN LAW JANE CLOSE 1828 23 SERVANT
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1853 Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference RATCLIFFE Ellen 76 Standish Wigan & Leigh STND/5/5
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1855 Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference RATCLIFFE Henry 83 Standish Wigan & Leigh STND/5/299
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1857 Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference RATCLIFFE Henry 35 Standish Wigan & Leigh STND/6/31
1861 England Census Transcription Street:CROSS FARM County:Lancashire Parish:STANDISH City: Town: Ecclesiastical District:MANCHESTER Parliamentary Borough: Registration District:WIGAN Registration Sub-District 1 Standish Enumeration District:2 Archive Reference:RG09 Piece Number:2767 Folio:38 Page:17
ROBERT PATTON 1833 28 Standish, Lancashire HEAD M Farmer ? acres employing 1 man ELIZABETH PATTON 1816 45 Standish, Lancashire WIFE M Farmers wife ELLEN RATCLIFFE 1853 8 Standish, Lancashire STEPDAUGHTER Scholar MARGREY RATCLIFFE 1855 6 Standish, Lancashire STEPDAUGHTER Scholar ALICE GORE 1846 15 Shevington, Lancashire SERVANT U Farm Serv MARGARET RIGBY 1796 65 Eccleston, Lancashire BOARDER U Fund holder
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Mary
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8 Mar 2013 11:47 |
James Penney born 1822 -1893 Kidderminster married Sarah Thompson ?? J/A/S 1845 V18 P405 in kidderminster. She was born between 1818 -1822 in Stourbridge.
He is with a Sarah 1851/61 census.
1891 James Penny with Niece Ellen nee (Ratcliffe) and Great/Grand nieces and nephews,so it looks like Sarah thompson was sister to James Thompson.
Maryb.
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Guy
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8 Mar 2013 13:20 |
Fantastic info on Ratcliffe side, give me time to deal with real live grandchildren and I will try to absorb it all and come back. Thanks
Guy
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