1851 census Sarah if not already posted Name:Sarah Penny Age:35 Estimated Birth Year:abt 1816 Relation:Wife Spouse's Name:James Penny Gender:F (Female) Where born:Stowbridge, Worcestershire, England Civil parish:Kidderminster Ecclesiastical parish:Kidderminster Town:Kidderminster
|
Sarah Thompson (of full age) did indeed marry James Penney on 2/8/1845 at Kidderminster Parish Church. She was living in the Parish of Ribbesford and gives as her father James Thompson a Stock Taker, a witness was an Elizabeth Thompson. Is there a relationship with James Thompson 1842-1879? It seems likely that Sarah could have been a sister of James's father. When I look at familysearch.com I cannot readily find Sarah's birth with a James as a father, presumably somewhere 1816-1825 in Worcestershire. Any clues as to how I find her parents and who her siblings where (unlikely to be an only child).
Guy
|
Lets look for Ellen's gran
Looking at Eliz Fisher: From the 1847 marr, we know her dad was Richard, and she prob had a sis Alice. Based on 1851, she should be 26 in 1841, poss recorded as 25.
Well, there's an 1841 with Richard, and prob his daur Alice, a="15", living at Bradly Hall (now replaced by Bradley Hall Trading Estate, abt 700m NE of St Wilfreds). However, there's no Elizabeth with them - but then she's 26-ish. There are a couple of Eliz Fishers working on farms as Female Servants - Ones on Shevington Moor, a couple of km W of town, and the other's at Mill Bridge Farm, 1.5 km NE of Bradley Hall. The latter is with Mary Fisher, a="20", another F.S. - this h/h gets my vote. Baptism: 18 Dec 1814 St Wilfrids, Standish, Lancs. Elizabeth Fisher - Daughter of Richard Fisher & Alice Abode: Worthington Occupation: Farmer Baptised by: Joseph Westmoreland, Asst. Curate Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1834, Page 17, Entry 132 Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 9 Jun 1816 St Wilfrids, Standish, Lancs. Mary Fisher - Daughter of Richard Fisher & Alice Abode: Worthington Occupation: Farmer Baptised by: Joseph Westmoreland, Asst. Curate Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1834, Page 30, Entry 240 Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 15 Feb 1818 St Wilfrids, Standish, Lancs. Ann Fisher - Daughter of Richard Fisher & Alice Abode: Worthington Occupation: Farmer Baptised by: Joseph Westmoreland, Curate Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1834, Page 42, Entry 335 Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 17 Mar 1822 St Wilfrids, Standish, Lancs. Alice Fisher - Daughter of Richard Fisher & Alice Abode: Worthington Occupation: Farmer Notes: 4th daughter Baptised by: William Hodgson, Asst. Curate Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1834, Page 75, Entry 600 Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 10 Oct 1824 St Wilfrids, Standish, Lancs. Ellen Fisher - Daughter of Richard Fisher & Alice Abode: Standish Occupation: Farmer Notes: 5th daughter Baptised by: Geo. Whitlock, Asst Curate Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1834, Page 104, Entry 832 Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 29 Sep 1833 St Wilfrids, Standish, Lancs. Margery Fisher - Daughter of Richard Fisher & Alice Abode: Standish Occupation: Farmer Notes: 6th daughter Baptised by: Geo. Whitlock, Asst Curate Register: Baptisms 1813 - 1834, Page 197, Entry 1575 Source: LDS Film 1526140
Looking at just the girls names, and at Eliz's girls names, provides further circumstantial corroboration that this is the right family.
1841 England Census Transcription Street:BRADLY HALL Parish:STANDISH City: County:Lancashire Country:ENGLAND House Number: House Name: Registration District:WIGAN Town:STANDISH Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:527 Book:15 Folio:22 Page:2
RICHARD FISHER 1791 50 Farmer ALICE FISHER 1791 50 WILLIAM FISHER 1816 25 ANN FISHER 1821 20 JAMES FISHER 1821 20 ALICE FISHER 1826 15 ELLEN FISHER 1826 15 BENJAMIN FISHER 1829 12 RICHARD FISHER 1831 10 MARGARY FISHER 1834 7 [All have pob=Lancashire - remember adults (15+) were supposed to have ages rounded down to a mult of 5 in 1841]
1841 England Census Transcription Street:MILL BRIDGE FARM Parish:STANDISH City: County:Lancashire Country:ENGLAND House Number: House Name: Registration District:WIGAN Town:WORTHINGTON Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:527 Book:17 Folio:3 Page:1
BENJAMIN ASPINALL 1791 50 Farmer JAMES DAWBER 1821 20 M.S. ELIZABETH FISHER 1816 25 F.S. MARY FISHER 1821 20 F.S. [All have pob=Lancashire]
1851 England Census Transcription Street: Parish:STANDISH City: County:Lancashire Division Of County:LANCASHIRE NORTHERN DIVISION Ecclesiastical District:STANDISH Hamlet: House Name:BRADLEY HALL House Number: Parliamentary Borough: Municipal Ward: Registration District:WIGAN Enumeration District:4D Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:2198 Folio:190 Page:25
RICHARD FISHER 1792 59 Worthington, Lancashire HEAD M Landed Proprietor 93 Acres employing on it Four Labrs. Proprietor of Coal Mine ALICE FISHER 1791 60 Worthington, Lancashire WIFE M WILLIAM FISHER 1814 37 Worthington, Lancashire SON U Farmers Son ANN FISHER 1818 33 Worthington, Lancashire DAUGHTER U ALICE FISHER 1822 29 Worthington, Lancashire DAUGHTER U ELLEN FISHER 1825 26 Standish, Lancashire DAUGHTER BENJAMIN FISHER 1829 22 Standish, Lancashire SON U Colliery Clerk RICHARD FISHER 1831 20 Standish, Lancashire SON U Colliery Agent MARGERY FISHER 1834 17 Standish, Lancashire DAUGHTER MARY YATES 1817 34 Worthington, Lancashire DAUGHTER W ELLEN YATES 1846 5 Coppull, Lancashire GRAND DAUGHTER Scholar ALICE YATES 1848 3 Wigan, Lancashire GRAND DAUGHTER THOMAS YATES 1850 1 Wigan, Lancashire GRAND SON
[Coppull is a township in Standish parish, but in Chorley RD]
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1845 Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference FISHER Mary YATES Richard All Saints, Wigan Wigan & Leigh C33/6/16
Marriage: 5 Aug 1845 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England Richard Yates - 51 Coachman Bachelor of Wigan Mary Fisher - 29 Servant Spinster of Wigan Groom's Father: Thomas Yates, Farmer Bride's Father: Richard Fisher, Farmer Witness: James Fisher; Ann Grundy Married by Licence by: John Lomas Curate Register: Marriages 1845 - 46, Page 8, Entry 16 Source: LDS Film 1885695
Baptism: 22 Oct 1845 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs. Ellen Yates - daughter of Richard Yates & Mary Abode: Coppull Moor Occupation: Coachman Baptised by: G D Brown Curate Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 152 Source: LDS Film 1526140
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1847 Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference YATES Alice Wigan Wigan & Leigh FISHER WIG/22/309
Baptism: 26 Jan 1848 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs. Alice Yates - daughter of Richard Yates & Mary Abode: Wigan Occupation: Coachman Baptised by: John Kelly Curate Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 175, Entry 9 Source: LDS Film 1526140
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1849 Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference YATES Thomas Wigan Wigan & Leigh FISHER WIG/27/218
Baptism: 16 Jan 1850 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs. Thomas Merrick Yates - son of Richard Yates & Mary Abode: Wigan Occupation: Toll-Keeper Baptised by: E Layng Curate Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 203, Entry 2 Source: LDS Film 1526140
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1850 Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference YATES Richard 58 Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/25/221
Burial: 17 Oct 1850 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs. Richard Yates - Age: 58 Abode: Wigan Buried by: R. H. Whitworth Curate Register: Burials 1840 - 1856, Page 197, Entry 1576 Source: LDS Film 1526141
|
James Penney born 1822 -1893 Kidderminster married Sarah Thompson ?? J/A/S 1845 V18 P405 in kidderminster. She was born between 1818 -1822 in Stourbridge.
He is with a Sarah 1851/61 census.
1891 James Penny with Niece Ellen nee (Ratcliffe) and Great/Grand nieces and nephews,so it looks like Sarah thompson was sister to James Thompson.
Maryb.
|
Looking at Ellen's side:
Using http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/ Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1849 Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference RATCLIFFE Margaret Standish Wigan & Leigh FISHER STND/4/339
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1851 Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference RATCLIFFE Alice Standish Wigan & Leigh FISHER STND/5/143
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1852 Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference RATCLIFFE Ellen Standish Wigan & Leigh FISHER STND/5/471
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1847 Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference RATCLIFFE Henry FISHER Elizabeth St. Wilfred, Standish Wigan & Leigh C28/1/481
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/ Marriage: 8 Sep 1847 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancashire, England Henry Ratcliffe - Of Full Age Farmer Bachelor of Langtree Elizabeth Fisher - Of Full Age Spinster of Bradley Hall Groom's Father: Henry Ratcliffe, Farmer Bride's Father: Richard Fisher, Farmer Witness: Alice Fisher; James Darbyshire Married by Licence by: Geo. Whitlock Curate Register: Marriages 1837 - 1848, Page 241, Entry 481 Source: LDS Film 1526141 [Looking at the half dozen marrs on each side of ours, Jas Darbyshire is a witness on 9 of the 12 - probably he's some rellie of the parish clerk]
Baptism: 27 Aug 1849 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs. Margaret Ratcliffe - daughter of Henry Ratcliffe & Elizabeth Abode: Langtree Occupation: Farmer Baptised by: E Layng Curate Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 200 Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 25 Jul 1852 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs. Ellen Ratcliffe - Daughter of Henry Ratcliffe & Elizabeth Abode: Langtree Occupation: Farmer Baptised by: W H Brandeth Rector Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 232 Source: LDS Film 1526140
Baptism: 17 May 1854 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs. Margery Ratcliffe - Daughter of Henry Ratcliffe & Elizabeth Abode: Langtree Occupation: Farmer Baptised by: James P Yeo Assit Curate Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 251 Source: LDS Film 1526140
1851 England Census Transcription Street: Parish:STANDISH City: County:Lancashire Division Of County:LANCASTER NORTHERN DIVISION Ecclesiastical District: Hamlet:STANDISH House Name:OLD HALE LANGTREE House Number: Parliamentary Borough: Municipal Ward: Registration District:WIGAN Enumeration District:4C Source: Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:2198 Folio:165 Page:20
HENRY RATCLIFFE 1774 77 HEAD ELLEN RATCLIFFE 1777 74 WIFE HENRY RATCLIFFE 1822 29 SON ELIZABETH RATCLIFFE 1815 36 DAUGHTER IN LAW MARGARET RATCLIFFE 1850 1 GRAND DAUGHTER ALICE RATCLIFFE 1851 0 GRAND DAUGHTER MARGARET RIGBY 1787 64 SISTER IN LAW JANE CLOSE 1828 23 SERVANT
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1853 Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference RATCLIFFE Ellen 76 Standish Wigan & Leigh STND/5/5
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1855 Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference RATCLIFFE Henry 83 Standish Wigan & Leigh STND/5/299
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1857 Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference RATCLIFFE Henry 35 Standish Wigan & Leigh STND/6/31
1861 England Census Transcription Street:CROSS FARM County:Lancashire Parish:STANDISH City: Town: Ecclesiastical District:MANCHESTER Parliamentary Borough: Registration District:WIGAN Registration Sub-District 1 Standish Enumeration District:2 Archive Reference:RG09 Piece Number:2767 Folio:38 Page:17
ROBERT PATTON 1833 28 Standish, Lancashire HEAD M Farmer ? acres employing 1 man ELIZABETH PATTON 1816 45 Standish, Lancashire WIFE M Farmers wife ELLEN RATCLIFFE 1853 8 Standish, Lancashire STEPDAUGHTER Scholar MARGREY RATCLIFFE 1855 6 Standish, Lancashire STEPDAUGHTER Scholar ALICE GORE 1846 15 Shevington, Lancashire SERVANT U Farm Serv MARGARET RIGBY 1796 65 Eccleston, Lancashire BOARDER U Fund holder
|
Thank you, I've lean't a lot today. Regretably I haven't found a Toy Merchant in those James Thompsons born in 1844, sadly the "Mangle workers assistant" wasn't one of my relatives!
Guy
|
Guy, you need to look at the images, not the transcriptions, to find occupations. As Reggie said, they are recorded on all cencuses but only transcribed (on most sites) on the 1881, except for Scotland when on Ancestry they are transcribed on all the cencuses.
|
Thanks. The suggestion to try to find a James Thompson in the 1871 census whose occupation was a Toy Merchant doesn't seem to work since no occupations were given then. He could have been illegitimate, I was not aware there were no penalties for failing to register births until 1875!. He could indeed have come from Scotland or Ireland for all I currently know. I'm trying to find some earlier THompson connection and there don't seem to be too many direct clues BUT enter James Penney. Family gossip suggest that one of his wives was a Thompson, sister to James's dad. So "Maddie's" news on that is well worth researching and I will pursue that line - many thanks.
Guy Mayers
|
Until 1875, there were no penalties for not registering births.
As he was almost certainly illegitimate, the odds are that his birth wasn't registered.
|
I wonder if this could be your James penney Name: PENNEY, James
Registration district: [?] Kidderminster
County: Worcestershire
Year of registration: 1845
Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's last name Not available before 1912
Volume no: [?] 18 MarriageFinderâ„¢: [?] James Penney married one of the following people Transcript BAKER, Phoebe VIEW GILES, Mary VIEW GOODMAN, Mary Ann VIEW THOMPSON, Sarah
1851
1851 England Census about James Penny Name: James Penny Age: 28 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823 Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Sarah Penny Gender: M (Male) Where born: Kiddr, Worcestershire, England Civil parish: Kidderminster Ecclesiastical parish: Kidderminster Town: Kidderminster County/Island: Worcestershire Country: England Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability: View image Registration district: Kidderminster Sub-registration district: Kidderminster ED, institution, or vessel: 1l Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 43 Piece: 2038 Folio: 289 Page Number: 10 Household Members: Name Age James Penny 28 Sarah Penny 35
Page no: [?] 405
|
Guy, he might not have been born in England - the census has James Thompsons of the right age born in Scotland and Ireland.
You could try looking at the images for every unmarried John Thompson on the 1871 and see if you can find one who is a Toy Merchant - bit of a big job though!
|
Yes the 1881 census shows the recently widowed Ellen Thompson (nee Ratcliffe) and her three young children living at <alvern Rd, Worcester St John Bedwardine and the 1891 census shows they had moved to Spring Bank, Coventry Str Kidderminster. I'm also interested in the "James Penney" who was then living with them who family gossip says had three wives (long before divorce was a possibility!) I don't know where James Thompson was born, it seems there were rather a lot of births of that name and I have no clues as to District etc and 28 years back from April 1872 could be 1843 or 1844. There seem to have been 87 such births in 1843 and 78 in 1844, how do I find the right one assuming he gave his correct age at marriage? I have not got his death certificate since I don't think it will tell me much about his parents but I believe he died in Kidderminster in 1879.
Any help, clues or ideas would be much appreciated.
Guy Mayers
|
only death I can see that fits age ,after last child born and before 1881 census? Name: James Thomson Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845 Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1879 Age at Death: 34 Registration district: Newport Inferred County: Shropshire Volume: 6a Page: 457
|
1891
Name: Ellen Thompson Age: 39 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852 Relation: Niece Gender: Female Where born: Standish, Lancashire, England Civil parish: Kidderminster Ecclesiastical parish: St George County/Island: Worcestershire Country: England Registration district: Kidderminster Sub-registration district: Kidderminster
James Penny 60 - widower Ellen Thompson 39 - widow - born Standish Lancs Margaret A Thompson 18 Henry F Thompson 16 Alice Thompson 14 James H Martin 27 - lodger
|
Is this the family in 1881, with Ellen already a widow?
1881 England Census about Ellen Thompson Name: Ellen Thompson Age: 29 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852 Relation: Head Gender: Female Where born: Wigan, Lancashire, England Civil parish: Worcester St John Bedwardine County/Island: Worcestershire Country: England Street Address: Malvern Rd Condition as to marriage: Windower (Widower) Education:
Employment status: View image Occupation: Lady Registration district: Worcester Sub-registration district: West Worcester ED, institution, or vessel: 4 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 2913 Folio: 91 Page Number: 77 Household Members: Name Age Ellen Thompson 29 Margaret Ann Thompson 8 - b Westonsupermare Henry Fisher Thompson 6 Alice Thompson 4 James Penney 58
|
It would help to see the census you have found them on.
Is this the right family ?
1881 Name: Ellen Thompson Age: 29 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852 Relation: Head Gender: Female Where born: Wigan, Lancashire, England Civil parish: Worcester St John Bedwardine County/Island: Worcestershire Country: England Street Address: Malvern Rd Condition as to marriage: Windower (Widower) Education:
Employment status: View image Occupation: Lady Registration district: Worcester Sub-registration district: West Worcester
Ellen Thompson 29 - widow - born Wigan Margaret Ann Thompson 8 - Weston super Mare Henry Fisher Thompson 6 - Worcester Alice Thompson 4 - Worcester James Penney 58 - visitor
|