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is this the child between Marjorie and Arthur??


London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Richard Eric Williams
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 24 Jan 1904
Father's Name: George Frederick Williams<<<<<<<<<<<
Mother's name: Sarah Williams<<<<<<<<<<<
Parish or Poor Law Union: Walworth St John the Evangelist
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

Father a clerk.

???
Births Mar 1904 WILLIAMS Richard Eric Southwark 1d 172

Deaths Sep 1904 WILLIAMS Richard Eric 0 Lambeth 1d 203

?????

Name: Arthur Williams
Street address: 11 Great Francis St 7
Occupation: Greengro
Publication Title: 1940 Kelly's Directory of Birmingham
County: Warwickshire
Country: England
Publication Year: 1940

also listed directly underneath him in the directory:

Name: Arthur Williams
Street address: 117 Sherlock St
Occupation: Greengro
Publication Title: 1940 Kelly's Directory of Birmingham
County: Warwickshire
Country: England
Publication Year: 1940

There are an awful lot of Arthur Williamses listed though.

Ah this is a bit odd so probably not them

Marriages Dec 1911 (>99%)
Adams John J London C. 1c 8
Gilson Elsie T London C. 1c 8
Gittins Mary A London C. 1c 8
Williams Thomas London C. 1c. 8


I dudnt double check this as think it was posted on an earlier reply and maybe deleted ???

So she was trying to hide her identity then maybe.
They didn't marry till 1911

You could try ordering Arthur,s birth cert from Lambeth giving them his parents names .they can then locate the right one .probably cost a little more but at least you won't waste money on wrong certs

Lambeth

The Register Office Town Hall Lambeth SW2 1RW

020 7926 9420

[email protected]

London borough of Lambeth

Message for Prickly Holly -- In the Baptism record for my Aunt Marjorie (which I had never seen before), it contains the line Parish or Poor Law Union South Lambeth All Saints. What does that mean? My grandfather had married before in Welshpool in 1878 and had two children, and most likely had never divorced, therefore was not married to my grandmother. Or if he was, he was a bigamist. Its possible that 'Hilda", who was definitely Sarah Gittins but always called herself Sarah Williams, did so in an attempt to hide her identity. Hilda was the name given to a child she had before she met my grandfather, and this child was brought up by one of her Shropshire family. No wonder I'm confusing everyone, and I'm sorry!
Message for Gritty -- thanks for that, I'll give it a go.
Message for Shirley-fathers bcert, born Shropshire 1900, mother Sarah Ann Williams, formerly Gittins. 'Hilda' she used in London -- for a year or two at least.

Shirley,

Which marriage did you find, as I asked about dates earlier and never got an answer?

2 marriages, first to Hilda, then to Sarah?

Or does James' birth certificate say mmn Gittins?

Hello Marjorie,

You might have more success posting your query on the Birmingham History Forum- they have a section for the Kelly's directory, so may be able to give you more information for Arthur. Worth a try:

http://www.birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/

as George didnt marry sarah gittins til 1911 then maybe she wasnt the mum of the older children.

Mother consistently listed as Hilda

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about George L Williams Name:George L Williams
Mother's Maiden Name:Gittens
Registration Year:1911
Registration Quarter:Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district:London City
Inferred County:London
Volume:1c
Page:13



London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Marjorie Williams Name:Marjorie Williams
Record Type:Baptism
Baptism Date:6 Jun 1902
Father's Name:George Frederick Williams (Clerk)
16 Clewdson? Road. Brixton
Mother's name:Hilda Williams
Parish or Poor Law Union:South Lambeth All Saints
Borough:Lambeth
Register Type:Parish Registers

You keep throwing in names, but don't give any dates.

When was Marjorie born?

When was George born?

And did they have other names?

As James and Ruth did, one would have to assume that all the children were given more than one name

Again it's a problem because there are lots of Arthur Williams marrying in Birmingham between those dates , unless you can establish which one he is ie did he have a second name , then it's lots of certs again

I am interested in getting Arthurs birth certificate, but there are so many Arthurs born in that part of London around that time, I don't want to end up with several wrong ones. At the time of the 1911 census Sarah was pregnant with George, her husband was away and I think she found it hard to cope. Might even have been doing a moonlight flit.
Arthur married, I think ,sometime in 1936 or 1937, soon after his father died. His mother is at Arthurs wedding and sister Ruth is a bridesmaid, and as she married in 1938 I am guessing he got married between the two events.
I know that given all the bits and pieces I have, I should be able to trace him and his family but I just haven't been able to, and I do appreciate the help you are giving me.

the fact that they were poor wouldnt preclude them being on the 1911 census.

have you looked for James F on the census?

Do you have your father's birth cert?

Are you intending to look for Arthur's birth and get a copy cert?

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
5, Cleaver Street, Lambeth, London, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
George F Williams Head Married Male 42 1859 Clerk (Qua? Oats Limited) Montgomeryshire, Wales Transcription
Hilda Williams Wife Married Female 30 1871 - Shropshire, England Transcription
James F Williams Son Single Male 0 1901 - Shropshire, England Transcription


Hilda's and James's birthplace Oakengates

Thank you for all this effort. As you say, his is a common name. My father, James Frederick Williams was born in 1900 in Shropshire, although the family lived in Lambeth. Then came a sister Marjorie, then a child who died and then, I understand, Arthur. The only positive thing I really know about him is that he owned a grocery business in Handsworth in Birmingham in 1940 and that was the only time I met him.
Ruth was the last child born to Sarah Williams (Gittins) in Birmingham in 1915.
The 1901 census which records my father, as a baby, with his parents, George Frederick Williams and Sarah together in Lambeth -- unfortunately Sarah gives her name as Hilda, which complicates matters, but its the only time she does so.
I can't find Sarah or any of the children on the 1911 census -- they were very poor.
George Frederick is on it in Birmingham, presumably looking for work there.

As Arthur was your uncle, which of his siblings was your parent? Where and when was that child born?

I assume you've checked for links in search all member trees?

Is this a sister?


Births Dec 1915 (>99%)
Williams Ruth L M Gittins Aston 6d 894

Father born when?


Deaths Jun 1935 (>99%)
Williams George F 72 Birmingham 6d 119

Look for his birth and get accurate info

If you obtain a copy of the cert, you will have exact DOB, info which can be used to search for his death.

The informant on his death cert may be a relative

No easy way with such a common name

Wonder if this is his parents .there is one lady missing from the list

Marriages Dec 1893 (>99%)
Cook Elizabeth Pancras 1b 133
Stalley Harvey Pancras 1b 133
Williams George Frederick Pancras 1b 133

Edit. Possibly not as this looks to be the marriage

Name: George Frederick Williams
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Age: 29
Spouse: Frances Henry Pullam
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 16 Oct 1893
Parish: St Barnabas, Kentish Town
Borough: Camden
Father Name: James Williams
Spouse Father: George Pullam
Register Type: Parish Register