General Chat

We have allotments around Vancouver as well, only they are called "community gardens" here.

They began as local community projects on otherwise unused ground, mainly in-ground growing at first, but now developers who had bought land and demolished the building(s) on there but will be taking several years for development to proceed can level the ground, build raised beds with bases, allow locals to use those beds, and receive a massive drop in the city (property) taxes they would have to pay if the land was left lying there.

This has happened on many former gas (petrol) stations where the land became incredibly valuable when in an otherwise heavily-built up area such as the downtown peninsula. Many of those sites have been bought by developers, the land is ever increasing in value, but development may be delayed by a need to remediate the ground after leakages from the underground tanks. Or the developer may simply be hanging on hoping for the lot's value to increase and then sell it on, thus getting a huge profit.

I can think of close to 20 around the city, and every one is heavily patronised by people living nearby.

Plus some community gardens were developed along side a couple of rarely used train tracks in built-up areas .............. mostly done "illegally" but now accepted!

We have allotments galore in Winchester - even I used to have one, just down the road! Unfortunately I wasn't able to keep ducks there.
The ducks, and vast veg growing event went on in Essex, where, strangely, I was an ag lab, and got fruit & veg cheap, from the farmer.
Both my daughters now have allotments where they live. :-D

Downtown areas of most cities and larger towns here are also very built up ......... the peninsula of downtown Vancouver has a population density that is almost as high as Manhattan. Highrise apartment buildings of 80 storeys are not uncommon. Even areas close to downtown but outside the peninsula are being built up at a fast rate.

Density around subway stations in every city that has them, and along major transit routes in cities and towns, is being increased to the highest density possible, or will be within the next 10-20 years, with highrise towers 20-30 storeys, or to a maximum of 60 in Vancouver, and higher in Toronto..

Even where I live in a small suburb of the city about 10 km from the downtown core, city plans are being changed so that the blocks along the 2 major transit routes running north->south through the area can have single family homes with relatively large front and back gardens replaced with 6-8 storey buildings in the areas where there are businesses and around major transit exchanges (ie, main roads crossing). Townhomes can be built in at least 30% of the remaining residential area lining the streets.

In my immediate shopping area, the supermarket owned a large plot of land most of which was used as above ground parking with the store and a liquor store in one building at the back of the lot. It was redeveloped about 8 years ago ............. new store building right against the lot line on the major street to the east, the liquor store as a separate building at the southwest corner. The remainder was built up with 3 towers, 16 storeys, 14 storeys and 12 storeys high respectively, and a row of townhouses along the side street to the west to "make the development blend in with the existing neighbourhood".

No gardens ............. but lots of plants and even trees can be seen on apartment balconies.

It was what is known here as "spot rezoning" ........... and the developer got it through because the site was where the major north-south road crossed a major east->west road, it was less than 5 minutes from the airport (even though the bridge gets terribly congested), and within 20 minutes of a university.

The neighbourhood was upset ............... there were about 2,000 people moving in there, another development less than1 mile north that was bringing another 2,000, and and a 3rd smaller one that was planned for about another 1,000. No demands were made by the council for the developers to include or contribute to new or improved community facilties, such as a new school, library, community space, etc. The developer had also exaggerated the times to get to different places, but no local let out that little bit of information.

At a local community meeting about the development plan, the developer told those present that he had grown up in the area and "knew what was best for us"!!!!!!!

I think those that know me would not be surprised to here that I did not take that comment sitting down!

That meeting and the comments made at the meeting and in reports resulted in the heights of each of the towers being reduce by 2 storeys each. The 2 city councillors who attended certainly got an earful that night!!!!


Downtown Toronto is worse.

But, people grow plants on their balconies, even on tiny "Juliet" ones.

It can be done.

I think people here, especially those that realise the problem and immigrants from crowded countries, are as imaginative in what they can grow and where as the British used to be!

Being in crowded areas without large gardens, or without any garden space, is not really an excuse to someone who really wants to start growing at least some of their own food.

Even those schools that Rollo mentions, and believe me he is not the only one who knows about them, can do something ........ schools in the downtown cores of Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal etc don't have much spare space, but something can be, and is being, done to teach children about growing some food.

One reason why England /Wales local councils are selling land is because people are allowing them to by lack of interest in cultivation and this gives the local councils to use it as a loophole.

Under Section 23 of thee Small Holding and Allotment Act 1908,,,,,,Local authorities are **by law** required to allocate plots of land to allow cultivation...…**If its proved enough interest is raised.****


So if no one challenges this then that plot with enough room to build 4 hutches will be sold off.


Its your right being lost.

When I was at school, many years ago, in Cornwall the boys (!) could take a lesson in gardening every week.... while I sat there looking out at them out of the window, hating them lol, with a needle and thread making a blouse I would never ever wear. Same with woodwork :-|

Every tiny scrap of land here is being swallowed up, in pursuit of making this a 'city' , side gardens are sold off to put two houses on, the rooms and garden of which are barely meeting the minimum size required.

Most central London schools don't have playgrounds let alone football pitches or space for polytunnels.

Scotland is around the same area as England, maybe a bit larger. It has a population of around 4.5 M , England about 50 M. The pressure for land precludes gardens large enough for any significant growing of veg for all but a few - even in what passes for the countryside.

When I was a young sprog I wangled a "roadman's cottage" from the Highways Authority at a peppercorn rent. The cottages had massive gardens and a walk in larder. In 2 years I grew no end of veg and fruit. With the low rent I also had my house deposit saved up.

Now when I revisit the village the dozen roadmen's cottages and their gardens have all gone replaced by high density social housing - > 100 "units" varying from 2 bed houses to studio flats. There is a communal "lawn" "feature" regularly mowed and that's it no question of growing much.

Brexit, with or without a deal, will not bring much happiness to domestic menus.

2016 Murcia Espana flooded and the UK complained about their lack of lettuce and other veg.
2019 it has flooded again and the UK will be lacking veg because what was saved will go to the locals who lost everything.
So Yes the UK expect veg from abroad at a very cheap rate. ...will that change, who knows ? but it will next year because of the floods. Brexit or not.

Something to think about everybody is shouting veggie or vegan thee days and they also want more housing. So the fields where you plant your veg for food to sustain your self you build houses on on for the people who need sustaining . Where does the food come from ?

and before you say if you got rid of the foreign nationals we would have more housing.. forget it. If all the ex.pats Brits got kicked out of the countries they live in and returned to the UK it would be a nightmare. remember many of those are also retired so will need monetary help as well as housing.

Yes we can all go back to when ever when we grew a few veg in our backyard. well we might have to soon

My gran used to make wine - from parsnips, to gorse, elderberry- anything!
It was lovely (after the first glass) - and i was seriously 'under age' when I drank it.
But then it was 'natural' :-D :-D

Florence .............. several, if not all, elementary schools in Vancouver and other parts of Metro have veggie plots. They don't have poly tunnels although at least one has a small greenhouse.

It's for the same reason ......... teaching children where food comes from and hoping they will encourage their parents to try growing their own.


I grew up in a Lancashire mill town, living in one of the red brick terrace houses built for mill workers in Victorian times. Our front door opened right from the street, and we had a paved back yard with a small flower bed against one wall.

My grandparents lived across the street from us, in the corner house of a cross street. They had a small front garden (about 3 strides from gate to front door), and a paved backyard.

Neither families grew anything at home, but my grandfather had an allotment about half a mile away, where he grew veggies, small fruits and a few flowers. He also had a greenhouse there where he grew a grape vine from which he made an particularly vicious white wine! By the time I was old enough to go there he had stopped doing much gardening, except for the graves and making the wine because he had other family concerns.

I was only allowed to have that wine once ............... Dad and I went to see him on Christmas Day (which he always maintained was his birthday, it wasn't!!). It was cold and we'd had a long bus ride and walk, so he offered Dad a small brandy (kept for medicinal purposes only, of course). He then told me that I was too young for brandy, and got me a very small glass of the last wine that he had made, about 7 or 8 years before.

I literally staggered up the hill away from his house! It also tasted terrible! :-D

Other neighbours did grow a few things in their back yards.

When I was 11, we moved to a larger house in a village which had been absorbed by the town, but houses were a bit larger and most had some sort of garden at either the front or back. Dad started growing flowers in our very long front garden ..... but it wasn't "done to grow veggies" there. The "village" was still there! Unfortunately we only had a very small backyard with 2 buildings in it (out-of-use outdoor toilet and coal shed) occupying much of the space.

We used to grow our own vegetables, and I was surprised there was nothing on the pea and bean poles on the plants under 2 ft - then I spotted our children playing in the garden, eating the peas and beans! They even pulled up carrots and ate them - putting the leaves back so we wouldn't notice!
We also kept ducks - or rather, they kept us.
We rescued the 'minor' drake from a neighbour who was keeping 6 drakes in a pigeon loft,
'Manny' (an Indian Runner) as he was called, was suffering from depression (hardly surprising), so we found him a mate, we named Peggy.
The ducks were locked in a safe enclosure at night, but were allowed to roam the garden during the day.
Peggy laid lots of eggs - in the woods next to our garden. She would re-appear after a few weeks of 'disappearance' with at least 12 ducklings.
We didn't have the room for too many ducks, so, once the ducklings had grown their 'proper' feathers, I'm afraid a couple were taken (one at a time) around the front of the house (out of sight and sound of the other ducks), and 'despatched'.
Very tasty they were too!

I have friends down south in kent & sussex that live in small towns and in their small back gardens, they have greenhouses. They also like someone said use window boxes to grow herbs etc

I appreciate that people who live in the cities in flats or areas where the gardens are very small don't have the space to grow as those living in rural areas with larger gardens but I have grown tomatoes in my lounge on the window sill and peas in a pot too.

For some, gardening isn't for them and I suppose its easier just to go to the shop & buy what you need.

Its true here, land is plentiful and many grow their own. I have never seen any shortage of fresh produce in our shops unless the ferry hasn't run for 2 days because of bad weather.
Both supermarkets here donate all their unsold sandwiches and fruit and veg past their date to the local homeless hostel. There the people living there can make soup themselves with the veg which is good in helping them rehabilitate.

Our climate here is often so windy that growing produce can be tricky and very disheartening when your peas are just ready to pick and then during the night a gale comes and your pots are upside down in the morning and the plants ruined. Such is life we just carry on!

I have grown up with growing our own produce. Both my grandparents had medium sized gardens but grew potatoes, carrots, beetroot and fruit bushes too. Nearly all the neighbours did and we lived in a flat but we all had a back garden.We lived on the edge of a large town.

In my local primary schools, we have raised beds and a poly tunnel. As part of science and topic, we teach the children to grow things and educate them where the food comes from.They love being outside with their wellies on.

Surely in the towns and cities, the schools have room for a greenhouse? They have playgrounds and a football pitch so surely in a primary school a small space could be found? I know some are going to say where will the money come from? Well good old fundraising is what we do when we want something. Can take time to get what we want but in the end we do achieve it.

Florence in the hebrides

Vancouver BC occupies about ten times the area of Islington. No surprise then that the urban landscape is very different and gardening opportunities limited.

Have just harvested 4 large runner beans planted in a plastic trough for their white/cream flowers and large green leaves which have been covering a brick wall. There are a few small beans left on to keep growing. Next year will plant earlier and in longer planter to cover more wall.

Most----Farm shops don't sell produce grown themselves,,,,,,,many farm shops don't even sell UK grown produce,they buy from wholesale markets that sell imported produce,!! so that good factor feeling that all is good is misleading.

I cant imagine buying veg from a shelf..

many things can be grown at home in a tiny space ,,,,,,,just explore and be surprised.

Rollo ...............


about 300,000 people live in Vancouver, well over 1 million in Metro Vancouver.

People still grow veggies and fruits in their small gardens!! And have bee hives!

Even many big city hotels across the country have herb gardens and bee hives on their roofs ............ some sell Honey Beer in their bars, "made with honey from our bees"

A neighbour grows strawberries in a 2'x2' patch between his garden wall and the side walk, with sunflowers either along the side or back of them. His back garden is planted tightly with tomatoes, beans, etc etc.

A neighbour across the stree hplanted 2 fig trees against the south wall of his house, and thickly planted his small back garden (smaller than ours) with rows of beans, tomatoes, and potatoes. His wife spent days making tomato sauce. He died 3 or 4 years ago, and his family is having difficulty maintaining ........ his 90 year old widow, 6or year old daughter, and occasional grandchildren visiting aren't able to do much.


It can be done .............. if people think about what they can do. That's why I said that Britain might have to consider such a dreadful prospect.



Rose .............. OH has improved the soil in our garden by double digging. He digs a trench, puts compost at the bottom of the trench, then fills it in. Then he plants potatoes which are very good as they produce a lot of nitrogen which is left in the soil and really helps to enrich it.

He originally started by using only a small area of the "patch", gradually digging an extra trench year by year.

One of my best memories, albeit a trivial thing, is of sitting in a French garden filled with the scent of lilies, and shelling fresh peas :-) It was a long time ago, I hope it is still there and still as lovely.

In France we have about a hectare of land (* 2.5 acres ) though due to the strange way France landholdings are split up it is not all in one piece . I didn't even realise how much we had for a long while.

Some of the ground is very heavy, some is full of stones and even more is taken over by hawthorn, brambles, hazelnuts and an a-z of European plants. We have hacked out enough of it for a garden and grow stuff that does not need a lot of attention, mostly raspberries and potatoes. Potatoes are good for breaking up ground the lazy way.

The upside is that the wild side is full of all sorts of wild life - redstarts, swallows, barn owls, lizards, moles, sangliers, red squirrels, a badger sett, - so I have fixed up some comfy hides for photography and called it a draw with Ratty & Co.

The veg? We go down to the local market which runs twice a week and has all sorts of stuff you never see in England.

That said Islington, Barnsbury, Camden are good places for buying real food as well. Lots of people ( not us) grow flowers and veg on the roofs, even hives for honey bees.

250 000 people live in Islington. The Hebrides , which has far more land than Islington, has a population of around 30 000. That is why "the Good Life" is not an option in British cities, not even Winchester, though urban gardening can be fun.

Sylvia

"It is forbidden by city bylaw to concrete or pave over more than a certain small area of garden. It is thus not allowed to pave over your front garden to provide parking space for cars, the most that is allowed is a drive way to a garage by the side of the house."

That is exactly what I said to Dan I would bring in here!

Aside from one other in this terrace all the houses have paved or gravelled their 'gardens', no plants, no nature, no water drainage ( or trees to absorb it). My garden is very hard going ( mining waste and clay) so difficult to grow things but shrubs, roses, anything 'tough' will manage if planted small and allowed to grow.

I used to have a big garden that meant I could have a huge compost heap but here I do have a compost bin and use the compost round the shrubs as top dressing.

We have a small house on what is a standard size lot in a middle class area of Vancouver ........... 33' wide by 120' long. An alternative size in our block is 40' wide by 120' long.

So not large lots at all. The front garden is split in the middle by a path to the front door ........... each side has been a small area of lawn with rose beds at the front and 2 sides. There is a rose trellis over the path. Now OH has turned the lawn on one side into a native plant area ........... needs less tending and is attractive to butterflies, bees and birds. There is also on that side a large Arbutus tree (native) in the street corner, a 20-25' tall Camellia against the house, and 2 rhododendrons, one very large, in a raised stone bed against the house. There is another rhodo in the matching stone bed on the other side, and then a fence .

"Borrowed" landscape is a large Maple tree in the boulevard between the sidewalk and the road at the front, and 3 flowering cherry trees in the boulevard along the side.

The back garden has a narrower part close to the house due to an extension that we built, and then widens by about 4'. A bed close to the house has perennials, and along the side and back of the extension are a clematis trained against the wall, and herbs (2 or 3 kinds of thyme, lavender and rosemary). There is a small grassed area from the perennial bed widening at the end of the extension and then extending for about 5' where our daughter could play when young. OH turned the remaining part of the back garden into a veggie garden that is about 8' by 8'.

In there he grows 2 Kiwi vines close to the house, the female is about 30 years old and the male about 25 years old. Both are supported by T-bars made of 4x4" lumber and wire. We get a minimum of 100 and a maximum of over 400 kiwis every year.

Along one side of the patch are 3 apple trees espaliered along a wood and wire fence. There is a narrow (width of a lawn mower) strip of grass between these and a flower bed with perennials and shrubs against the fence, with naturalized snowdrops, crocus, bluebells and a few tulips occupying the bottom ca 2' of the grass (finally mowed down in May or early June).

The actual veggie growing area is closer to being about 7' x 7' when the kiwi vines and apple trees are taken into account..

Not large ............ but OH each year plants 3 or 4 rows of potatoes, 1 or 2 rows of broad beans, 1 row of peas, a row of tomatoes, and maybe a row of leeks sown in early summer, then thinned and transplanted for over winter. At the far end of the veggie patch is a large rhubarb plant and a late-flowering (September) clematis allowed to climb over the fence and provide some colour.

He digs the potatoes in September, providing enough to last us from then until march or April. We don't bother with digging early to get new potatoes ............... local ones are on sale.

He started that veggie bed in 1972, the year we bought the house ....... the soil was sandy and not very deep as we are on glacial till and the hard pan is not very far below the surface. Over the years he has composted every year so that we now have thick deep black fertile soil, both in the veggie bed and in every other flower and perennial bed around the house.

There is then a driveway made of paving stones separated by grass strips and leading to the carport attached to the house, and a bed along the neighbour's fence from close to the lane and along the side of the house. A very old cherry tree is close to the lane, and then peonies, bluebells, lily-of-the-valley, and finally some bushes of tayberries espaliered along a wire and wood fence, right next to the carport withe rhubarb between them and the fence.

Between the lane and the old cherry tree is OH's compost box ........ our lawn mower man deposits the grass from our house and the couple of others nearby where he also works. We now compost only the grass and garden clippings, as all food composting is collected by the city.


There is a huge movement here, even with the agricultural land in many areas of the province, to actually USE the front garden.

It is forbidden by city bylaw to concrete or pave over more than a certain small area of garden. It is thus not allowed to pave over your front garden to provide parking space for cars, the most that is allowed is a drive way to a garage by the side of the house.

This is all to maintain drainage of rain water into the soil rahter than run off in the sewers and then rivers.

People grow veggies, small fruit trees and bushes in their front garden, sometimes building raised beds. Some have even tried growing wheat and other grains!

The only by-law that the city has is that one's garden and the outside boulevard must be kept tidy ................. they don't care what you have growing, but if it is untide and not mowed and maintained, then warnings are delivered and fines if not done.

Britain might have to think about doing this kind of thing!

Kay, you still need room, however small for pots and cans and drainpipes, though I agree small quantities of veg etc can be grown with a bit of imagination. I do grow herbs and tomatoes in pots and I have a couple of blueberry bushes in pots. I tried a dwarf runner bean in a large pot but the problem was that there were never enough beans ready at the same time. I have also tried beetroot and salad greenstuff in large pots. Success was variable but the benefit was hardly worth the cost and effort.

I suppose in a national emergency we would turn over our very small garden to veg but at the moment the flowers and shrubs are feeding the soul if not the body :-)

By co-incidence as I was looking at this thread last night a local free paper was delivered and it had an article about two huge glasshouses that are to be constructed, one in Suffolk and one in Norfolk. They are to be used to grow tomatoes and it is believed that they will provide 12% of the tomatoes required in this country.