General Chat

Thanks Kathryn, that's really nice to know :-)

Really enjoyed reading this ladies :-)

Oh yes that accident could well have caused Henry's change of character! Anne was supposed to have caught Henry with Jane Seymour on his knee!! Poor Anne! Henry Norris, who was the kings dearest friend was implicated, not helped by a foolish comment made by Anne which was in fact treasonous!! He too lost his head!! What dangerous times these were!

The miscarriage didn't happen until nearly a week after Henry's jousting accident/fall, but you are right, according to Eustace Chapuys, Anne tried to blame it on the way the Duke of Norfolk broke the news of Henry's accident to her.

She also blamed it on fearing that her heart was broken when she saw Henry loved others (Chapuys' writing again). There had been a few spats when Anne had seen evidence of Henry's interest in one Jane Seymour, with Anne even tearing Henry's gift (a locket with a portrait of himself) from Jane's neck.

There is a belief that due to the injury sustained when jousting on the 24 January 1536 he suffered brain damage that change his personality.

He was feared fatally injured and remained unconscious for 2 hours . Henry was in full armour when he fell from his horse, the horse, also in armour, landed on top of him. An old wound on his leg was also reopened by the fall, his leg never healed after this.

Anne miscarried when she heard of the accident and it was reported to her that Henry would die.

Henry is a fascinating subject in his own right. A golden boy when young, handsome, gifted and highly intelligent. For years all was well with him and Katherine of Aragon, until!!! At the end of his life the golden boy had become a paranoid monster! Even poor elderly Lady Salisbury was executed, Her crime was that of being too close to the throne, her claim could be said to have overridden Henry's and his heirs!

Magpie is quite correct, there is extensive correspondence covering the whole period from Bosworth to 1688. Most of it is not online and quite a bit remains with family archives rather than public bodies. The general take on Ann Boleyn was shock, heading for trouble. Close relatives closed ranks for self protection.

The enforcement of law was quite strict following the lawlessness of the Wars of the Roses. Even Thomas Cromwell could not bump off inconvenient people as easily as popular writers may suggest.

Henry viii was an able and highly intelligent man who was unable to integrate with a fast changing country with power shifting from landowners to trade and industry.

This was an interesting subject for debate, but perhaps on the wrong forum. I don't think that there are enough people on here interested in history to have a serious conversation. Best to stick to domestic trivia!!!

True Magpie :-D

There's a thought!! Mind you God must have been particularly busy during the middle ages and Tudor period!!

I think your all right
I wonder if he had to answer to his God when he died :-( :-(

Oh I think we have enough evidence of Anne's downfall from letters from Anne herself, Cromwell, and the King, all in the British Museum. Chronicles and the observations of people around at the time, in particular the Spanish Ambassador Eustace Chapuys in his reports back to the king of Spain. In any case, why a cover up?! Elizabeth was said to have never mentioned her mother, although after her death, a portrait of Anne Boleyn was said to have been found on a necklace which Elizabeth always wore.

Can we really ever know, as it wouldn't be the first time someone in power changed the official records to show what they wanted the public to know.

What an interesting Thread :-)

Yes, at St Georges Chapel Windsor. It was only supposed to be a temporary measure as the king had commissioned a mausoleum for himself and Jane Seymour, which at the time of Henry's death had not been completed. It never was, so there they stayed along with various others including Charles 1st
Thomas Cromwell was instrumental in Anne's downfall, for his own political reasons, also Anne herself was at times her own worst enemy, with behaviour that was considered disrespectful to the king, and 'unqueenly'!! The population at large disliked her, as Katherine of Aragon had been very popular and Anne was seen as a usurper, even a witch who had beguiled the king! So no sympathy there!! Lady Rochford Anne's SIL, falsely betrayed her suggesting incest, along with others, so poor Anne was completely trapped and the end was inevitable. Interestingly, her former betrothed, Lord Percy, now the Duke of Northumberland refused to sit with his other Peers at Anne's trial in order not to have to condemn her. He pleaded illness and stayed away. He obviously cared for her, but could do nothing to save her. He himself made an marriage in which he was extremely unhappy, his wife too I expect! Which is just a sad extension of this tragedy

Henry wanted an heir badly as up to this point queens were the wives of kings and not rulers in their own right.

Henry was very religious and believed his marriage to Katherine of Aragon was blighted because he'd married his brother's wife against the scriptures. He had to have a reason why once again he didn't have a male child and I believe the miscarriage showed Henry he had another blighted marriage and God was displeased. Henry started to say Anne bewitched him and other accusations were made and the men accused with Anne were tortured to get them to say the accusations were true.

Henry got rid of his second wife so he was totally free to marry again. The third marriage produced his son so he thought he had been correct in believing God was displeased with his marriages.

Life was cheap in these days and a means to an end were easy for a king. Tittle tattle soon became the truth - but it might be interesting where the rumours came from in Anne's case.

Note he was buried with his 3rd wife Jane Seymour.

The annulment was declared two days before Anne's execution, so the die was already cast for Anne. One suggested reason was her supposed contract of marriage with Henry Percy making her marriage to the king not only null and void and adulterous, but also an act of treason, both punishable by death. Another was the kings liaison with Anne's sister Mary, which would also make Anne's marriage illegal and adulterous, (death again) but not an act of treason, but her supposed affairs took care of that!! Making the marriage illegal, neatly made Elizabeth illegitimate, so, along with elder half sister Mary there was no question of them being any threat to future heirs!!!

I think she was set up.

Once K of A was dead, and with Anne losing the baby boy in miscarriage soon after Katherine's death, Henry just needed to get rid of Anne to be free to marry and have a male child who would be an undisputed heir, as Katherine's death would leave Henry as a 'widower' in the eyes of Catholics and others who saw his 'marriage' to Anne or anyone else as invalid whilst Katherine was alive.

It seems crazy that she was executed for adultery and treason, and yet at the same time he had their marriage annulled - if they weren't married, how could she have committed adultery against him? :-S

For certain Anne would never have been divorced if she had had a boy but then neither would Katherine of Aragon. Having a son was of enormous importance to Henry, not just to carry on the Tudor line, but in the interests of he stability of the realm. Bearing in mind the chaos of the war of the roses which didn't end until 1485, and which in 1536 would still have been fairly fresh in people's memory, this was understandable. Little did he know that despite all his efforts, the Tudors would be gone by 1603, replaced by the Scottish Stuarts!

I also feel she was set up
Lost her head just to
please a kings ego :-(


On the 29th January 1536, according to the Imperial ambassador, Eustace Chapuys, Anne Boleyn miscarried a male child of around three and a half months in gestation. Anne’s miscarriage was a huge blow for both Anne and her husband, Henry VIII, particularly as it was a boy, but it is not clear how much impact this miscarriage had on the couple’s relationship and whether it was the beginning of the end for Anne Boleyn. Historian J.E. Neale writes that Anne had “miscarried of her saviour” and Retha Warnicke writes that “her fall was almost certainly triggered by the nature of the miscarriage she was to suffer in late January, for there is no evidence that she had been in any personal or political danger.” However, Eric Ives disagrees:-
“The miscarriage of 29 January was neither Anne’s last chance nor the point at which Jane Seymour replaced Anne in Henry’s priorities. It did, nevertheless, make her vulnerable again.”
Vulnerable, but not the beginning of the end