Genealogy Chat

Thanks Kathleen. He did actually go missing a few months before the end of the 1 world War which is why I suspect he was in Intelligence but I keep chipping away. Maybe one day.... Janet

Janet, of course you are quite correct about the 7 year rule applying, the army in Russia after WW1 was a peace-keeping force and we were not at war then. My father served there until 1920, from what he said conditions there were very harsh and men went missing for various reasons. If you have reason to believe your relative was in Intelligence that could be a reason for his disappearance. In WW2 Dad was in the Merchant Navy and was missing presumed killed only until the convoy reached England when it was confirmed that his ship was sunk and no survivors. My Uncle was torpedoed several times and posted missing presumed killed twice, three other occasions he was justed posted missing. He was killed alongside my Dad (his brother) in 1943. Such a lot of hardship was caused to families, and a lot of distress because of the red tape that did and still does apply. Kathleen

Valerie, What was your relatives name? Maybe we can have a little look for you? Otherwise, as I think I said in my e-mail to you, try writing to the CWGC as they should have his information. Ian

Valerie It is worth trying to write to the MOD for more clarification. They will ask you for any certificates reqired from youand you will have to complete a form. The battle of Monte Cassino took place 14/16 February 1944. If you google Monte Casino+1944 you should find a lot more info on this. Off hand do not know which ships went down at this time. You may get more info as to what ships were in the area at this time. A lot of 2 W War info is still under wraps courtesy of the MOD but dribbles are coming to light all the time. The book that I have on Monte Casino details the army battle only but the Navy and the Hospital Ships were there in force as back up for the troops. Yes that was the way it was in the 2 W War, the sailors did not have the name of the ship on their caps so that no information could be given to the enemy. This is what has made it so hard for many people to trace what ships they were on. Also remember that many personnel would have been picked up by enemy ships and taken to Germany/Singapore/Japan etc and interned in POW camps, maybe died in these camps so the MOD genuinely did not know what would or could have happened to them, hence the missing presumed dead. We should not confuse this issue with those that definitely died at sea and were buried at sea. Those people will have a burial certificate and a place on the CWGC if this was wartime, but please all spare a thought for many thousands of these sailors who just disappeared and even today their ancestors are left trying to piece together what happened to them. I was lucky with my father's records, as he always told me which ship he served on and just before he died he gave me a list of all the ships he had been on, so I was the lucky one. When I realised he had been on the Barham, the Hood amongst others, and had close calls on both because he left both just weeks before both went down, makes one realise what war is really all about. Good luck. Janet

Hi you are a lovely lot thanks for all your tips I have a Photo of him wearing his Uniform with HMS on the Cap also the letters from the War office state he is missing presumed killed so not sure if he drowned or what he was in the Monte Cassino Battle in Italy maybe he was on the Ship that your relative was on ,do you know what year that was mind you I would have thought lots of Ships went down I did look on the medal side of the War site but didnt find him there either do you think if I send my Fathers Birth certificate (his Brother) or maybe his parents death certiifcate they will give me his information thanks ever so much

Valerie, my grandfather was in the RN (not sure which ship) and was shipwrecked in teh Mediterranean, taken as a POW by the Italians and then released back to the British (on some swop or other I think) about 6 months later. Poor blighter was then ship wrecked AGAIN on the way back to Britain (via Rio, if Grandad was to be believed). I wonder if your relative was on the same ship that was sunk in the Med but unfortunately died in the PoW camp or before he got to land? Have you tried the medal roll at the National Archive...this might give you a service number (but not sure if this also includes naval medals too). I found my greatgrandfather's record there last week and having his Number has proved immensely useful. Liz

Valerie As this person is second W War, the only address you can apply to is the MOD which used to be at Hayes but for the Royal Navy is now I understand at Gosport. You will have to prove that you are next of kin which can be tricky but not impossible if you have other relatives that may take precedence over you and that can include an older brother. The address that I obtained information for my father, who served in the Royal Navy during the 2 W War, in 2000 was: AFPAA(Centurion) Centurion Building Grange Road Gosport Hants PO 13 9XA Tel: 023 9270 2204 (TheTel No may have changed) If this address is unable to help then they will put you in touch with the correct people. It is a good idea to have as much info as possible on your relative so if you know his Service No, the name of the ship he was on and maybe other ships he served on. It will also cost you £25 and probably up to a years wait. I have a heart breaking case of a sailor who went down on one of the ships during the 2 W War and his brother died aged 86 never knowing what happened to him. As he was only an uncle, I have struggled to find out more info to help the family but they could not tell me the name of the ship so it has been a very difficult to trace him. I only have his name and he is not on the CWGC site either. I do hope you have some success in this because I do realise how important it is for you. Good luck. Janet

thank you all very much I could not find him recorded on the war graves site but did find his brother which was good but he died in the Army not the Navy and in front of people so obviously there is a certificate of death .It is the second war I am talking about he died in Italy I think, I dont understand why there is no details on him I have also looked on 1837 and a few other sites looks like a letter is the next thing thanks again to all of you

Hi there, Yes HMS definateley does mean the ROYAL NAVY As for finding information. write to HMS NELSON in Portsmaouth Hants. or MOD Navy at WHitehall LONDON. ANy of these two places should be able to help you send them all the info you have. They will then put you in touch with the relivent office. Good luck and let me know haw you get on Pat

The 7 year rule applied to one I had missing in Russia at the end of the First World War, who was a major in the army and because his 7 years extended beyond 1922 I am unable to access his documents in the National Archives and as I am not next of kin, because there is still family in the USA, I am unable to write to the MOD so there are occasions when the 7 year rule is enforced in wartime. He is not on the CWGC site and my guess is that he was working for Intelligence. I understand from a cousin that his missing in action did cause much hardship to the family. I am still searching for his earlier career through the NA but have been unable to find very little so far but I have found information on his appointments through the London Gazette. I also have personal knowledge of someone who lost her husband on HMS "Glorious" in 1940 and in 1946 was still waiting. confirmation of his death. Yes HMS is Royal Navy. Valerie Are you talking 1 or 2 W War. For 1 W War you need to access the National Archives at Kew pre 1922 but if missing in 1918 then 7 years beyond that puts you to 1925 so that would still have to be Gosport. For 2 W War you need to write to Gosport in Hampshire Julie You would be surprised at what sailors had even in wartime. I remember my father coming back from the Far East in 1943 with 2 trunkfuls of delicate china and many other pieces he had picked up on the way + all the money they carried on their person for 2/3 years. They were not as poor as you think they were particularly in the 2 W War. Please remember the sailors trunk has always been with the sailor as well as his kitbag

My cousin was presumed dead when his ship went down (The Royal Navy), he is listed on the War Graves Site, it also gives the names of his mother and father etc. which confirms you have the right one, June

Assuming this was wartime if a serviceman was missing presumed killed the 7 year rule did not apply. Particularly in the Merchant and Royal Navies, unless survivors were picked up by Allied ships or seen to be picked up by enemy ships (which rarely happened) there would be no chance of them still being alive after a few days. In that case a death certificate would be supplied and the death recorded with the approximated date of death. In the case of soldiers and airmen lists of POW's were passed through the Red Cross. In most cases there would be only a fairly short delay in confirming death - maybe a month or two if the name did not appear on a POW list. There were a very few cases of servicemen in both WW1 and 2, having been presumed killed were found to be alive at the end of the war.

It sounds bad at first but what normally happens is that his friends would rally round and pay inordinately high prices so the the relatives, especially if there were widows and children, got a tidy sum. Keith

thanks Janet It must be terrible for that to happen he wasnt married . But what I did find out from a letter that was sent to his mother from his seniors was they sell any of your private belongings (biggish things)to your friends or whoever wants them as they cannot be sent through the post and just keep small things to send back to your family and the money raised which seems such a shame doesnt it???????

Worth noting also that for legal purposes a person missing presumed dead has to be missing for 7 years before a possible partner could remarry, wills to be activated, insurance to be activated and so on, so there could and still can be huge implcations when someone is missing presumed dead. Can cause great hardship. Janet

thanks Helen

I presume by ordinary navy you mean the merchant navy? I think HMS means Her/His Majesty's ship, which implies the Royal navy. nell

THE WAR GRAVES SIGHT. MY NANAS BROTHER WAS MISSING PRESUMED DEAD AND I FOUND HIM ON THERE. WWW.CWGC.ORG. IT HAS A SEARCH ENGINE. GOOD LUCK. SUE

thanks I did have a quick look on there but wasnt sure if it was worth it will have another look

Just a shot in the dark but have you looked on the war graves site your relative may be listed there,don't quote me but I'm sure they also now do a section on war death certs if not its on 1837 online.Hope you're lucky with your search. Elaine