Genealogy Chat

Dear OC, DNA tests at dawn it is then! You simply cannot walk away from this one .... Could there be a connection with a hitherto unknown brother of 'your' James? Possibly an older brother, given the dates? Recently, I found an earlier marriage of one of my lot - and a stepbrother who moved away from his native Norfolk. This solved the mystery of why my Gt Uncle used to visit the Lake District - and who he was visiting. Keep on poking around! Good luck, Jane PS: Actually, tracing the doppelganger's line forward is a great idea - the Censuses have at least once shown me potentially unconnected people staying with some of my ancestors and thus proved a connection. Additionally, you might get some 'family legends' from descendants which tie into your tree.

Keep at it, girl. If I were you I wouldn't be giving up and I doubt whether you will either. With the same name and such a marked resemblance I reckon that you have a good chance of finding a link somewhere. You just need a stroke of luck to find it.

Hi old crone this is not really relevant to your story, but it sprang to mind. About 20 years ago I got myself a little evening job working in a staionary warehouse. I got talking to an elderly chap who really reminded me of my grandad. I told my dad and asked if he was a relation. He said that this chaps wife was in fact my dads cousin. Weird, or what. Claire

(Grrrr, third go at posting a reply) No, it is not a passing resemblance. When I found this photo, I showed it without comment to my daughters, saying only 'Who is this?' They all looked at me as if I was barmy and said 'Well, its Grandad'. They were as gobsmacked as me when I told them. If the illegitimate birth I have found for my James, 1825, is correct, then he is the son of Jane Holding, singlewoman of Wheelton and Robert Ashton, a crofter of Chorley. They already have another son, maddeningly not named on the Bastardy Order and I cannot find a suitable baptism. Jane has possibly an even earlier son to Foster, called Noah, but I am not 100% sure its the same Jane. I have looked for Noah but cannot find any trace. Jane's father is James Holden, a farmer of Wheelton and his wife Margaret. I THINK I have found James the Farmer on 1841, with wife Margaret and two James's, one born 1826, another born 1836. No relationships given, so could be a son and a grandson, or two grandsons. I can get James and Margaret back another three generations, still in Wheelton. James 1818, cannot be either the father nor the son of my James 1825. I found his baptism, I think, in Royton (he consistently gives this as his birthplace on 4 censuses, and his birth year is consistently 1818~). He is the son of John and 'By' (Betty) Holden, of Royton and there are Holdens recorded in this Church since 1650. There are so many trivial but maddening clues in this - in 1901, John James, his brother George Henry and MY JAMES's son James, all live in the same (posh) street. Also there is a widow, Edith Holden, who turns out to be the widow of one William Varlo Holden. They married on the Isle of Man - which is where MY JAMES wife comes from, same parish.The happy couple both lived in Lancs and I am at a loss to understand why they would off to the IOM in the 1850s, just to get married. I take the point that we all have a double and I would dismiss it as such, if it were not for the fact that the surname is the same! All the male members of my known family bear a passing family resemblance to each other, probably not particularly noticeable to strangers - but this is like seeing identical twins! I sincerely hope that I live long enough to solve this - I have even thought about tracing the family forward and demanding a DNA test!!!LOL Olde Crone

About 5 years ago, before I started doing my tree, I met a lady who I knew had to be related to me as she looked so much like my great Aunt. We couldn't find any connection though. Just short of a year ago I noticed that somebody had entered my great Grandfather's name on this site. It was the same lady who looked like my great Aunt. Turned out that her Father and my great Aunt were cousins. If I was you OC it would be driving me mad too, but I would have to keep on looking! Jeanette x

Well 'They' say that everyone has a double. My parents had a reproduction of an old oil painting (c 1700-1800) of a child that looks like me. At my work (I am a portrait photoghrapher) there is a display picture of a girl that is the spitting image a former co-worker- and I thought it was her. She came in one day to visit and I mentioned it and she said that it wasn't her. Upon inspection I could tell the difference, but it was uncanny. OC don't give up...... Gail

If it makes you feel any better, I have two pictures of two girls, both about 3-4. They are not related at all, but look like the same person. I know that probably doesn't help, but it does show that it can happen.

Oh Gawd, i wondered what you meant when you replied to my finding with 'Thank you, the plot thickens...' Jess x

You HAVE to keep searching! I understand exactly where you are coming from. When I met the researcher of the one name study into my maiden surname( and her's), I couldn't believe how much she looks like my sister. We are back to the 1700s so far with our separate lines... and no known link. DNA next step?

Hi OC, Question for you- do you know the father's name of James 1818 and your James 1825?Seeing as that your James' history is shady and he may have been born out of wedlock could mean something. If not same father, maybe James 1818's uncle, grandfather, cousin etc. is the connection. Although I'm sure you checked that, but I thought I'd ask. I totally know where your coming from about the obsession- I've been searching for what happened to my GGrandmother and my Grandfather's Dad. No death/marriage regs on either. IT'S MADDENING!! Gail

I have a similar situation of (maybe) wishful thinking. I have a lot of records on the Garfield family from Preston on Stour in Warwickshire going back to the early 1700's. Wills, architectural drawings, letters etc...the trouble is finding the missing 1 or 2 generations to John Garfield who married in Coventry in 1792. He is proving very difficult. Sylvia

Hi Olde Crone With the same surname and a marked resemblance, I would think it very likely that they are related in some way. It's a creepy feeling though, I know. There used to be a well-known pianist called John Ogdon. Saw him on TV once and he was the spitting image of my father as a young man. My father's great grandmother's maiden name was Odgen (different spelling, but we all know how much that signifies!). So, yes, one day I too will find the missing link! Tina

Olde Crone, I'm sure you are related to the man in the phot somehow, you just have to keep looking. For now the conection seems to want to be unknown but when the time is right you will find what you are looking for, for we are all cousins in one way or another.

Calm down, Old Crone. You know far more about genes than I do. Do all your family look like your father? (IE are there some rampant dominant genes at work here?) If two men look alike, I'd have said that it's either coincidence, or they are related through their fathers. If the latter, was your James Holden's mum keeping it in the family, so to speak? I spent a large chunk of yesterday, looking at family photos, and found it difficult even to identify the same person at different stages in their life. All the rest could have been completely unrelated, but someone familiar with the people involved, and how they moved and their colouring, would doubtless have seen all sorts of resemblances.

Hi Old Crone, Follow your instincts I'd say! I bet you find a connection eventually. Good luck, Carol

Er, Joan....my James 1825 married Ellen Grimshaw in 1859! Olde Crone

Hi Old Crone I think I'd be frantically looking as well if I thought he was mine. Mind you, are you thinking of making a claim on the family wealth? Good Luck!

Oh Maureen, how I wish you could find that connection. It will gnaw at you until you can prove or disprove it, but with your detective skill, perserverance and your pals on here I am sure you will do it. If you don't, can I have him ! Mum would be thrilled to bits to have somebody on her side of my family tree instead of all dad's rellies, Joan (HOLDEN and GRIMSHAW hunter)

(Gawd, why won't it let me add reply?) Many of you know this story already, you can go and do something else if you like! I found a photograph on the Internet of a man, John James Holden, who is the spitting image of my father, Edward Holden. He is not a known relative. I have obsessively searched for a connection between our families. I have found John James Holden, born 1844, who is the son of James Holden, born 1818.He rose to great and wealthy heights. My father is the great-grandson of James Holden, born c 1825, whose origins are very shady - appears to be illegitimate, but really not proven either way.James did not rise at all and finished his life as a labourer. At this point there is no connection, either by family or by geography, to connect the two families. Thanks to JESS last night, I took James Holden (1818) back another two generations. There is still no connection, either by area or by blood. Am I reading too much into an incredible likeness between two men, born almost 80 years apart, who seem to have no (provable) genes in common? OK, maybe someone was playing away - doubt if it was my Granny, she had a face like a bucket of spanners and apparently did not like 'that sort of thing'. And HOW can I make myself stop looking for a connection???!! Olde Crone

are you alright luv, what seems to be the problem?