Genealogy Chat

see below (may take a while to make understandable so bare with me)

sorry if any of this looks familiar but I had help to get census detailsabout two weeks ago and marriage cert has confused me again. I am descended from Hannah Watson born in Norfolk c1849. From her marriage certificate in 1868 her father is Richard Watson shoemaker. according to census after marriage she was born 1848/1849 in Norfolk. By trawling 1851 census for all Hannah Watson's I found one match with a father called Richard who was a shoemaker - in Tivetshall St mary Norfolk: Richard Watson 1819 Tivetshall, Norfolk, England Head - shoemaker Charlotte Watson 1822 Tivetshall, Norfolk, England Wife Hannah Watson 1849 Tivetshall, Norfolk, England Daughter John Watson 1847 Pulham, Norfolk, England Son Maryann Watson 1844 Pulham, Norfolk, England Daughter William Watson 1845 Pulham, Norfolk, England Son Sarah found me a matching marriage for Richard Watson to Charlotte Bartram in 1841 from which Sue in Suffolk found them both on the same page of 1841 census: Tivetshall St mary Abraham Watson 50 - farmer Elizabeth Watson 50 james Watson 22 Richard Watson 20 John Bartram 45 Ag Lab Harriet Bartram 22 Charlotte Bartram 20 Now for my confusion: Their marriage certificate arrived today: October 14th 1841 parish of Tivetshall St Mary, Richard Watson, shoemaker and Charlotte Bartram, both of full age living in Tivetshall St Mary. Witnesses are james Watson and Jane Etheridge. But the certificate gives NO details at all on either father - the columns for name and occupation are both just blank - not even crossed through which I am used to. Given the coincidences with being on same census and matching occupations etc can I still say they're mine? If the certificates have no details are parish records likely to be any more helpful? Was Neville White rector of Tivetshall St Mary just being downright lazy or were Richard and Charlotte too stupid to remember their fathers names after the walk up the aisle? Heady with lust maybe. Any help/suggestion/offers to adopt me and wipe out this line welcomed Zoe (in a twizzle)

is it a photocopy of the original, or a reproduction of the cert (typed or Modern writing)

ALice its from GRO at Southport so a photocopy of their original copying from the local books if you get me Zoe

If you are certain that Hannah on the census with parents Charlotte and Richard are yours, then I guess the marriage cert is yours too. I don't think that is confusing. I think the problem is that without any named fathers you will find going back another generation difficult. You would need to see if there are any baptism records for Charlotte and Richard which will definitely give you the mothers' names if not the fathers'. nell

Nell You wouldn't be put off by the absence of fathers names then? I do intend to spend some time in Norfolk soon looking at parish registers for another part of the family who are all from that area I just got downhearted that after taking ages to find them I might just have latched myself onto a coincidence and don't want to keep digging in teh wrong ditch. What I'm really after is someone saying - keep going - doesn't look that dodgy to me Zoe

Unfortunately the Norfolk Transcription archive on line doesnt cover Tivetshall and the only Charlotte Bartram I could find was: Aylsham District Aylsham 1820 BARTRAM, Charlotte William + Maria Sorry. Aylsham is no where near Tivetshall and so I think until proved differently, this must be your couple. Is it worth emailing the Norfolk Records office with your query? They have often given me freebies by email.

cheers Heather I'm now scouring the diary and looking out hotels for dates I can go trouble the Norfolk records office ;o) Apologies to all for over-reacting and being a worrier only I've already managed once to follow the wrong family for Hannah and I don't want to be stupid again Zoe

Well Tivetshall is a pretty small place. The Nelson Hotel is very close to the station in Norwich but I dont know how expensive it may be. You could try b and bs. If you are going by car, there are a few Travel lodge type cheapies around the city. The one at Thickthorn is just south of Norwich and on the main road going in - probably 10 minutes or so from the NRO at county hall. The NRO is very new and very smart.

cheers Heather got distracted by telly but I'll take a look at those places tomorrow Zoe

Hi Zoe I have a Norfolk marriage that is JUST like that. In fact, until I saw the original entry, I suspected that the rector was still using the old book. In my case, I think he felt that both parties were of full age, so it was none of his business to ask who the fathers were. Other people have certainly found similar instances, though it is DEEPLY irritating!

Hi Zoe, Thought I would just add to your thread. My Bartrams come from Tivetshall St Mary, and although I know we have shared our trees, I have checked again to see if there is a link. I am sure there must be somewhere! Let me know when you are coming to Norfolk, and perhaps we can meet up. I will keep searching for that link! Frances

Frances, hello you. See - we both knew that when we made contact two years ago we'd get the trees connected one day. This set of Bartrams is different to the ones from Dickleburgh. Well I hope/think they must be as the two lines don't join up until 1946 when my grandparents marry. CHarlotte's a new one for me. I've not added all these bits into teh tree yet I don't think so I'll try and make time over the weekend to do it and let you now when they're there Zoe

Zoe, I will look forward to seing what you have got. I really need to update my tree, and also sort out where the gaps are and which certs I need to send for. Hope to take a day off in March and spend a whole day on it! Frances

just got this email back from the Norfolk Registrars Office- which I wanted to add as it's tickled me..... 'Thank you for your e-mail. I have checked the Marriage Register for Tivetshall St. Mary and discovered that in entries 1 - 18 names of fathers have not been entered for any of the brides or grooms. I cannot imagine what the Vicar thought the columns regarding the Father's details were for because he completely ignored them in all the entries! I am sorry to give you this news because I know that it is not at all helpful for your family tree research.' Let's hope the vicar was a little more throrough in his own records and I can find them in the Parish registers Z xx

Hi Zoe What really gets me is that nobody dropped on the vicar from a great height. Some didn't send the records in, I've seen registers where fathers' names were reversed (John Smith father of Ann Jones and William Jones father of James Smith), only one witness etc and no marginal notes criticising the entries, or any indication that I've heard of that there was any sort of penalty exacted on the culprits.

Now I am really confused! Does that mean we are related or not? Frances

Perhaps he was a deeply religious vicar who believed that God is Father to us all?

Nell PMSL that cracked me up. really brightened up my dull morning Frances - still not sure really - I'm booking a few days off to come up to Norwich at some point and bury myself at teh records offie - so hopefull we'll get it unravelled Z xx

Frances I've added the two Tivetshall Bartrams I have onto my tree Can you let me know if I've allowed you to view my tree properly?? Zoe