Genealogy Chat

What's John address when he marries and who are the witnesses?

Rose

Oh dear i seem to be confusing everyone, including myself.
to try and clarify-
I do not have a marriage certificate for John Carrigan c1828 but have found a marriage on ancestry for a John Carigan marrying Sarah Stanley in 1851 Bridgnorth Salop

What i do have is a marriage certificate for his son John William Caragan c1856.
On this certificate John William has his fathers name as John Caragan,( it does not say deceased)

so i concluded that John William's father was John Carigan c1828

Now,
The birth certificate i have is for Hannah, John William's
first born child
Reads as Follows
1) Where and when born-
Twenty first May 1853 Mill St Kidderminster

2)Name, if any-
Hannah

3) Sex-
Girl

4)Name and surname of father-
John Carragan

5)Name ,surname and maiden name of mother-
Sarah Carragan formerly Stanley

6)Occupation of father-
Hawker

7)Signature,description and residence of informant-
x the mark of Hannah Carrragon, mother, Mill St Kidderminster.

8)When registered-
Sixteenth june 1853

I conclude from this, that Hannah is the mother of John William ,not baby Hannah, and she has misunderstood the question asked.

From the certificate it sayes to me that Sarah is definatley the mother, not Hannah.

On family search records i have found a William Carigan, DOB unknown- (spouse Hannah)- death 1834 Kidderminster

Now i'm thinking i have-
John William Carigan c1856
parents
John CarrIgan c1828 and Sarah Stanley c1833
Are Johns( c1828) parents William and Hannah Carragon? or am i completely on the wrong track?

This is the first stumbling block i've encountered that i cannot solve, its the variations of the name that have been a problem, i may have gone off on a tangent because of this.
Jean

Just to clarify, you said.


so i concluded that John William's father was John Carigan c1828

Now,
The birth certificate i have is for Hannah, John William's
first born child

Hannah isn't John william's 1st born as he himself wasn't born until 1856/7.

I still think that the mistake has been made with the registrar writing Hannah instead of Sarah.

If Sarah couldn't read or write then she wouldn't have known.


I think you should obtain a copy of the marriage cert for John and Sarah to see if the witnesses give any clues.

It's such an unusual name that it does seem as if the marriage for William to Mary Ann Lewis could be correct.



Does this record you mention have the name Hannah spouse?

On family search records i have found a William Carigan, DOB unknown- (spouse Hannah)- death 1834 Kidderminster


Christine

I think Jean meant that Hannah was the first-born of John C and Sarah Stanley, and we have found suitable information that his father was William. There is a William who marries Mary Ann Lewis, he dies in 1834 and she remarries John Lane, with whom John and his sister Mary Ann and Phoebe are living in 1841.

If that is the right John, of course.

We are then thrown into confusion by the person notifying the birth of little Hannah as being Hannah, mother, and I'd run with that being a mistake by the registrar. Where did you get the certificate from Jean? If from the GRO be aware that their records are open to error, as the original registration would have been at the local registry office, who sent quarterly returns to the GRO from which the GRO then compiled their own records from which the information is taken when a certificate is issued. I'd be tempted to contact the local register office, tell them you have already bought a certificate from the GRO and could they confirm that it is incorrect and the informant was Sarah Carragon, not Hannah. Most local offices will do this without charge. If you are right, you can then go back to the GRO and ask for a replacement certificate.

So, back to John b 1828, it is more than likely his parents are William and Mary Ann, but in view of the slight doubt I would get his marriage certificate to double-check witnesses. You might find that one is John or Mary Ann Lane.

A very valid point Christine, about the registrars error,
The record for William's death in 1834 does not have a spouse's name, that was assumption on my part that he was Hannahs spouse, and yes i can see exactly what you are saying about Mary Ann Lewis now.
Yes, it was't John William he was born 1856, he was baby Hannahs younger brother, got a little muddled on that one.
I do have the marriage certificate for John William and Sarah.
marriage- The Parish Church, Rowley Regis Dec 25th 1873
John William Caragan-Sarah Ann Robinson
Witnesses, Hannah Mercer-John Mercer
(Hannah Mercer is baby Hannah Carigan)
John William father is given as John Caragan
That may explain why John's c1828 2nd daughter was also named Mary Ann.
i cannot believe how one error can cause so much confusion, no wonder i could not find any details,
I will certainly be going to the archives to see what else i can find out, and follow this up.
Christine-the guidance you have given me has been priceless, and i can add another name to the ever growing varients of Callaghan.
Also a huge thank you to everyone who has taken the time to help.
Many Many Thanks
Jean

Jean, I think we were meaning get the marriage cert of John to Sarah Stanley in 1851 to check the witnesses.

You need to contact the local register office to check on the birth cert of baby Hannah, not the Archives.

Yes Meg, it was from the GRO and i certainly will take your advice, as both you and Christine have reached the same conclusion i admit it all makes total sense as to why i could'nt find anything, and all the varients have made tracing this line so difficult, it was only the 1871 census that Johns (c1856) name was spelt Callaghan that i was able to locate him.
I guessed a fresh pair of eyes would be able to see where i had "lost it" and a visit to the archives armed with this new info could be very productive.
Once again the support you have given me has been so much appreciated.

Jean

Just read your message, that will be my next project to go to the appropiate register office for John and Sarah's marriage certificate
Jean

Hi Jean,

These look like the marriages for Mary Ann Cadogan and Phoebe.

Marriages Dec 1842
CADOGAN Mary Anne Kidderminster 18 463

Marriages Dec 1849
Cadogan Phoebe Kidderminster 18 528


I used to live in Bewdley and still visit the area regularly as my sons and grandchildren still live in Kidderminster.

Please let us know if you manage to get the confusion over Hannah sorted out.

Christine

Hi Christine,
I have found the marriage for Phoebe, she marries Charles Brookes if my findngs are correct.
Just started to look for Mary Ann then i read your message so thats given me a good start.
Fancy you being a native of Bewdley.
Had a look last night at the e mail my "experts" sent me, theirs, yours and Madmegs were identical, so i cannot see how you can all be wrong.
Cant believe i missed the error on Hannahs birth certicate.
To "blinkered" methinks.
So far i have found fourteen varients of the name Callaghan.
I am on the trail of William Carogan and Mary Ann Lewis
now, but think a visit to the archives is called for.
I will let you know if i manage to verify all those details
Thank you once again

Jean

Nudging and ref to new thread.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1236239

Can you please post the details on here please.

Christine

Hello, sorry- realised i should have posted on this thread after i sent the new one,
The lady i am trying to follow is-
Hannah Carragan (Cadagan) born 1853 Kidderminster, daughter of John Cadagan c1828 born Ribbesford Worcs and Sarah Stanley c1833 born Kidderminster
have found a possiable marriage for her-
Hannah Carragon to John Mercer, in Dudley 1867
I have a marriage certificate for Hannah's brother John in 1873
Hannah Mercer and John Mercer are the witnesses.

There is a birth in Dudley 1868 for Mary Ann Mercer

The 1871 census
John Mercer c1847 born Dudley
Hannah Mercer 1853 born Kidderminster.

But-
1871 census
John Callaghan 1828 Bewdley (Head)
Sarah Callaghan 1833 Dudley (Wife)
John Callaghan 1856 Dudley (Son)
Mary A Mercer 1868 Dudley (Grandaugther)
So Mary Ann is with her Grandparents on the night of the census.

I cannot find Either John, Hannah or Mary Ann in the 1881 census

1891 census-
This could be a completely different family as the head of the household is now-
Edwin Mercer (head) c1840 born Stourbridge Worcs
Hannah Mercer (wife) born c1852 Kidderminster
Mary Ann Mercer born 1868 Dudley
Hannah Maria Paskins born 1885 Dudley.

Have also found a marriage for Mary Ann Mercer to Joseph Thomas Paskin in 1883 Dudley

There is no record of John Mercer c1847 before or after the 1871 census that i can match
Also- can find no marriage for Hannah Carrogan to an Edwin Mercer.

Two different families maybe, that i have somehow "scrambled" together? but i just cannot unravel. but strange that all the dates are practicaly identical.
Thanks
Jean

Hi again Jean,

I'll try to find Hannah in 1881.

Have found Mary Ann still with her grandparents. Hannah must have been very young when she married musn't she?


1881 England Census
about John Callagan
Name: John Callagan
Age: 52
Estimated birth year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Sarah
Gender: Male
Where born: Bewdley, Worcestershire, England

Civil parish: Dudley
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Street Address: 15 Dock Lane
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Occupation: Hawker

Registration district: Dudley
Sub-registration district: Dudley
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
John Callagan 52
Sarah Callagan 50
Mary Ann Mercer 14
John James Callagan 6

Will hunt round a bit more and see if I can come up with anything.

Christine

I can't find either Hannah and John or Hannah and Edwin in 1881.

In fact haven't found either John or Edwin ealier at all but it looks as if you are on the right track as I've found these 2 marriages.




Groom's Name: John Mercer
Groom's Birth Date: 1847
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age: 20
Bride's Name: Hannah Callagan
Bride's Birth Date: 1852
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age: 15
Marriage Date: 20 May 1867
Marriage Place: St. James Church Parish, Dudley, Worcester, England
Groom's Father's Name: John Mercer
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name: John Callagan
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status: Single
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status: Single
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M00978-6
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1470599
Reference Number: Item 1 p250 #500
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973



Groom's Name: Joseph Pasckin
Groom's Birth Date: 1865
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age: 18
Bride's Name: Mary Ann Mercer
Bride's Birth Date: 1867
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age: 16
Marriage Date: 11 Nov 1883
Marriage Place: Dudley, Worcester, England
Groom's Father's Name: Joseph Pasckin
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name: John Marcer
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M01611-4
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 378787
Reference Number: 103
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973

Christine

Thank you very much Christine,
Yes, Mary Ann must have only just been sixteen when she married,
I'm pleased you managed to find some of the same results,
The 1891 census is a poser as well, thought of all senarios, has John Mercer died and Edwin Mercer could be his brother looking after the family?
Edwin is to young to be Johns father so i have discounted that.
Its the men that seem to be the missing link
John Mercer
Edwin Mercer
Joseph Thomas Paskin- they appear once and then vanish again.
Jean

Well, I'm stuck!!!

Like you Jean, and Christine, and others who have no doubt been searching, I have found nothing new.

Hannah b 1853 was about 14 when she married John Mercer. Her brother John William wasn't much older at 17. Just observations, but very young.

So, Hannah Carrigan married at 14 to John Mercer, and they have a daughter Mary Ann b 1868, living with her grandparents in 1871 and 1881.

No sign of Hannah and John in 1881.

Hannah pops up again in 1891 married to Edwin Mercer, 7 years older than the John that she had married. So not the same man? I.e. John Edwin or Edwin John? Or did he lie about his age?

But I still can't find him.

But then there is Mary Ann Mercer with them in 1891, born 1868. Oh, no there isn't. I've just checked the census image. She is Mary Ann Paskins, so forget my possible query. Married Joseph Thomas Paskins, daughter Hannah M born 1885. I thought there was an oddity there. I will submit a correction to Ancestry. Done.

But no sign of the men, as you say, Jean.

Phew Madmeg!! at least i know what i have found so far is correct and i have not missed anything.

Yes i noticed the oddity as well in the 1891 census, i had'nt got round to reporting it, thank you for doing that.

Like you i'm not sure John and Edwin are the same person, there is the age difference and i have two different places of birth, whilst Dudley and Stourbridge are not poles apart, they are not next door to each either.

Just a thought-was there a conflict abroad that could explain why three people, roughly the same age bracket are missing, will Google it, must be worth a look.

This branch of the family are total inigma's, maybe this is as far as i get with them.

Do appreciate you all for taking the time to help me,
A trip to the appropiate archive just may give up a little more information.
Jean

Have you tried the prototype search site under Familysearch (you'll find it in the lower left hand side of the home page). I have recently made a huge breakthrough in one of my brick walls with this. It isn't complete yet, but already very good.

Don't forget that the records you find in sites like Familysearch give the place of baptism, not the place of birth. My breakthrough came about because I found that a child born to parents who married, and I think lived, in Reading was actually baptised in Canterbury. He was obviously taken back to the family home for the occasion. The parents had fairly uncommon names, which helped. This enabled me to find several generations more, further back.

Also, I spoke to a stall holder at a family history fair last year, who told me that one of his ancestral families had 9 children, each one of whom spelled their surname in a different way!

Yes Christine i have tried that site,thank you, in fact i found Hannah Carrigan 1853 on there (no one else though- just Hannah on her own) although i already had her, it gave me her baptism date and the place she was baptised.
Your stall holder story reminds me of 2x Gt Grandfather John-he was registered with one surname, married with another, and buried with yet another, he has a different spelling in every census, his three children all had different surnames, they, in turn had variations for their marriages.
I have a written list of 14+ varients which i use because i cannot remember them all. i never know which one to use when adding to my tree, usually i put the surname they were registered under, then write little essays in the notes box
I'm certain this is the reason i never get any Hot Matches for any of the "Callaghan" line!
Jean

Hi Everyone- hit yet another brick wall.
having problems locating the following ancestors in any of the census's
The information i have so far:
Marriage-
Mary Anne Cadogan-1826 born Ribbesford Worcs to-
William Fieldew Jerome c1816 Worcs
3rd October 1842 St Leonards, Ribbesford

Death-William Fieldew Jerome 1st qtr 1847 Kidderminster.

Marriage-
Mary Anne Fieldew Jerome to
James Bishop,( DOB unknown)
Worcester 1847 2nd qtr.

James Bishop and Mary Anne Bishop nee Jerome /Cadogan are witnesses at Marys sister's Pheobe Cadogan's marriage in 1849.

Cannot find any children from the Jerome marriage.

James and Mary Anne Bishop now disappear, no sign of them in any census or deaths.

A fresh pair of eyes would be yet again appreciated.

Thank you
Jean