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Thanks for all your interest, JoonieCloonie. In answer to your question, "so you don't have that birth certificate but you know from other records that this was your dad's grandmother's sister?"

By coincidence I have just received the birth certificate of my great-great aunt Edith Fanny Bennett (takes about 4 weeks from the GRO to Central Australia!). She was born on 20 December 1875 in Battersea.

But in 2011 I discovered the baptism record (on Ancestry) of Edith Fanny Bennett, for 27 February 1876 at St George, Battersea. It appears Edith and her older brother and sister (Joseph Edward Bennett born 1871 and Susan Bennett born 1873), children of Henry & Betsy Bennett, were all baptised on the same day, and all three were, without any doubt, the younger siblings of Dad's grandmother Eliza, as per Ancestry census transcriptions:

1871 Registration district: Wandsworth
Sub-registration district: Battersea
Household Members:
Henry Bennett 40
Betsy Bennett 35
Henry Bennett 11
Frederick Bennett 9
Sarah Bennett 7
Eliza Bennett 2
Joseph Bennett 1 month

1881 Registration district: Hambledon
Sub-registration district: Witley
Household Members:
Henry Bennett 50
Betsey Bennett 68 [?]
Eliza Bennett 12
Joseph Bennett 10
Susan Bennett 7
Edith Bennett 5
Elizabeth Bennett 2
George Bennett 1

The baptism record was also the first mention I had seen of the middle name Fanny for Eliza's sister, which of course increases the likelihood of Edith F/Edith Fanny Bennett in Bournemouth years later being the same Edith; but still not proof, though.

okay now I have got a handle on the info in your last post about Edith ... and obviously everyone here likes a little family mystery ... :-)


Edith Fanny Bennett 1875/1876, the sister of your dad's mother, whose mother was originally Eliza Bennett

so the idea is that Edith Fanny Bennett was born before your dad's mother's mother's marriage

Births Mar 1876
BENNETT Edith Fanny Wandsworth 1d 633

so you don't have that birth certificate but you know from other records that this was your dad's grandmother's sister?


just for our info

1911

> Name: Edith Bennett
Age in 1911: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation to Head: Boarder
Birth Place: Battersea
Occupation: DRESS MAKER
> Name: Lillian Bennett
Age in 1911: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1904
Relation to Head: Boarder
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Civil Parish: Wandsworth
County/Island: London
Street address: 27 Tonsley Hill, Wandsworth
Registration district: Wandsworth


in 1881 she was living with your dad's grandmother and her parents?

I certainly agree that you have the right Edith and Lilian throughout

so that would make 'Auntie' Edith your dad's great-aunt, sister of his grandmother, and that makes perfect sense


as to how Florence Gertrude Gray Cornell came to place a child with her

this is Florence in 1911 courtesy of Ancestry

Name: Horence Gertrude Cornell
Age in 1911: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Relation to Head: Wife
Birth Place: Semley, Wiltshire, England
Civil Parish: Sculcoates
County/Island: Yorkshire-East Riding
Registration district: Sculcoates
Bernard Cornell 25 born Hull, painter contractor wall paper dealer
Horence Gertrude Cornell 22

so they didn't likely cross paths before then

but by January a year later when first child was born, they were in Bournemouth

but Edith and Lilian were in Wandsworth in 1911

perhaps Florence did know the people Edith knew in Bournemouth and they recommended Edith to her as a foster mother as you surmise

edit - oops I see I was missing a bit of info you gave from one of Lilian's certificates:
Sergeant Major, Fifth Irish Lancers

I wonder whether there might be a Philip Charles X who would match those specs

http://www.royalirishlancers.co.uk/history.htm

'5th Royal Irish Lancers' was the actual name

Kevin Asplin seems to have only the Royal Irish Fusiliers which is not the same thing, I think

http://www.britishmedals.us/kevin/nominal.html


we might think that he was Philip Charles, just not Bennett ... this kind of fabricated father (a combination of his own given names and the mother's surname) is one not uncommon formulation for the father when parents were unmarried

FMP does have in its 1899-1903 Anglo-Boer Wars records, 5 men with given names Philip Charles:

Foord
Burgess
Henkel
Hulbert
Rainsbury

two of whom might not be British

I see only Rainsbury in the English indexes, born 1885 Lambeth, married 1907 Lambeth, and he was in the Imperial Yeomanry at the Asplin site


by calling the father a Bennett when her own name was Bennett, and pretending it was her married surname, Edith managed to put a father's name and details on the birth certificate that she would not have been able to include if she acknowledged that Bennett was her own birth surname

so I would think it is rather an important clue, unless she just randomly made up a father, but something like 'James' might have been more likely in that case!

MarieCeleste, the 'presumption of legitimacy' was a long-standing principle of law

a child born to a married woman during her marriage was presumed in law to be the child of her husband

this protected women and children against accusations of adultery / illegitimacy (actually in order to protect the husband against interlopers claiming to inherit his property etc.)

there was no DNA testing in previous centuries! :-)

so it wasn't a matter of naming the father if the parents were married to each other ... it was a matter of naming the husband if the mother was married

this doesn't mean that some children were not registered irregularly :-)

_____________________________________

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_legitimacy

Presumption of legitimacy
The "presumption of legitimacy" is a common law rule of evidence that states that a child born within the subsistence of a marriage is deemed to be the child of the husband.
Early history
Paternity has been considered a historically important issue in determining the rules of succession.[1] Illegitimate children were originally debarred from inheriting a monarchy, title, or property.


http://www.jstor.org/stable/1327172

... But with the advance of civilization and the recognition of the rights of personalty, the presumption was relaxed and could be rebutted by evidence that the husband was impotent or was beyond the four seas of England at the time of conception.


That comes from a 1919 book ... maybe your married woman managed to convince the registrar her husband was beyond the four seas of England ... or the registrar decided to consider the presumption rebutted on his/her own initiative given the facts :-)

I would dispute the purported legal requirement for naming a husband on a birth certificate. I have 2 birth certificates for children born to a married woman in the 1920s whilst her husband was working overseas (he was not the father), the children were registered in her married surname and show her married and maiden name but the father's name is blank on both of them - she was obviously honest with the registrar and they recorded the info given.

I had always thought that the requirement was for the father to be named when the parents were married to each other.

Oh dear, now I feel guilty. I am sorry, but when I wrote in my original response to the 10-year-old post that I am interested in learning more, I meant "learning more than I already know." In truth, just recently I compiled a 40-page booklet to give to my Dad on his birthday, about "Auntie" and her little family. It was based on research and information collected, on and off, over about seven years. It didn't seem practical to include all details on first contact, but since discovering such helpful people here, all so generous with their time, I regret not having been able to indicate this earlier.

It was while I was physically putting the booklet together that I realised there were still significant gaps in the story, and so started to order more BMD certificates to see where they would lead, hence the questions about Bernard and Florence Cornell's family. I was intrigued by Robert Peter Cornell's wife's request, as it made me realise that perhaps Peggy's whole family had somehow been split up, and I wondered if someone might know how, or why. My Dad, six years younger than Peggy (Enid), remembers only that Peggy and Lilian were always there, like big sisters, and has no recollection of Peggy ever mentioning her real parents or siblings.

Both Lilian and Peggy apparently used the surname Bennett, and while Peggy turned out to be from a different family, when Lilian married in 1933 her surname on her marriage certificate was indeed Bennett. I believe I have exhausted the trail of Auntie's and Lilian's stories in the records I have so far been able to access online and from other researchers over the years. The one question I still have here is regarding my own father's family history: his mother had no husband and, living in service, could not raise her boys herself. She did, however, visit them often and they grew up knowing her very well. Her mother's maiden name was Eliza Bennett, and Eliza had a younger sister Edith. It makes sense that "Auntie" may well have been Dad's great aunt and a blood relation.

My Dad's grandmother's sister was born Edith Fanny Bennett in late 1875 or early 1876 in Battersea. I have so far found no other records that I can be certain are hers, but did find (amongst many others!) an Edith F Bennett (of the right age and place of birth) in the censuses of both 1891 and 1901 in Bournemouth, living in service as a housemaid and domestic servant. It is possible this is where a connection was made with the Cornell family.

When "Auntie" died in Gosport in 1959 aged 83, her name was shown on her death certificate as Edith Fanny Bennett. My Dad's brother, described as "adopted son", was recorded as present at the death, and informant to the registrar. "Auntie" always claimed to have been the widow of a Philip Charles Bennett, a soldier in the Boer War. His name appeared on her death certificate, also on both of Lilian's marriage certificates as Lilian's father. However, when Lilian Amy Bennett was born in Covent Garden in 1903, the daughter of Edith Fanny Bennett, her father was not named on her birth certificate. In the 1911 census, although Edith's age was out by 3 years, I believe she and her daughter Lilian were listed as living in Wandsworth, as boarders in the household of an Isabel Carter and her family.

What I have so far been unable to find (apart from any record at all of the actual existence of a Philip Charles Bennett, Sergeant Major, Fifth Irish Lancers) is tangible evidence that my Dad's great aunt and "Auntie" were one and the same Edith Fanny Bennett. I have not yet explored adoption records and the like, to see if any of the care arrangements were formalised or recorded in any way; also perhaps more connections will come to light in the 1921 census.

JoonieCloonie I hadn't been aware of the legal requirement for naming a husband on a birth certificate, so thank you for that - this has helped me with another puzzle, where of one of my forebears had a child while her husband was serving overseas in the army - he was named as the father, but his army records proved he could not possibly have been. I am also very grateful for your, and others', very helpful suggestions here. Certainly food for thought: as always, as soon as one more snippet of information comes to light, a dozen more questions arise! Thank you.

I'm rather wondering about

... edit, unrelated people :-)

You mention "an older girl named Lilian".

Do you mean older than Enid/Peggy, or older than your father, AngeB?

EDIT:
Actually, these are the only feasible births of Lilian, assuming she was born in Sussex. But presumably not the 1912 one, if "Mrs" Bennett was unmarried:

Births Dec 1901 (>99%)
BENNETT Lilian Ada F Lewes 2b 170

Births Sep 1907 (>99%)
Bennett Lilian Battle 2b 44

Births Mar 1911 (>99%)
Bennett Lilian R Eastbourne 2b 62

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
Births Sep 1912 (>99%)
Bennett Lilian A Winter E.Preston 2b 594

A couple of very long shots:


1911 England Census about Edith Annie Bennett
Name: Edith Annie Bennett
Age in 1911: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation to Head: Inmate
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Stoke Newington
Civil Parish: Brighton
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Street address: St John's Convalescent Home 17 Walpole Road Brighton
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Worker In Children's Home <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Registration district: Brighton
Registration District Number: 79
Sub-registration district: East Brighton
ED, institution, or vessel: 27
Household schedule number: 347
Piece: 5115

(Lots of staff and children listed.)



1911 England Census about Edith Bennett
Name: Edith Bennett
Age in 1911: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1894
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Brighton, Sussex
Civil Parish: Brighton
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Nursemaid <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Registration district: Brighton (Address: 89a Church Street)
Registration District Number: 79
Sub-registration district: West Brighton
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Household schedule number: 644
Piece: 5136
Household Members:
Name Age
William Bennett 42
Georgina Bennett 42
William Bennett 15
Edith Bennett 17
Harry Bennett 13
Reuben Bennett 11
George Bennett 7


Of course, she could have fostered children without ever having worked with children previously.

hi Ange, so you knew so much info that I did spend rather a long time finding ......... I had surmised it was Enid's family you wanted to find and it would have been helpful to everyone to know this and what you knew about her I think

the husband of a married woman was legally required to be named on the birth certificate of a child born to her during her marriage, whether or not he was the father of the child

(the child might then never have used their mother's husband's surname)

the requirement wouldn't logically apply to a widow whose husband predeceased her pregnancy but it was not uncommon for a widow to continue naming her husband on birth certificates

this might be something to keep in mind

possibly the last child never used the surname Cornell, either taking Florence's partner's surname or being adopted after birth

it could be useful to obtain Florence's death certificate to see who registered the death in case it was that child or one of Florence's other children, or a later partner of Florence

(sometimes in that case a death was registered under two surnames, but I checked and that was not the case for Florence's death)

Name: Florence G Cornell
Birth Date: abt 1887
Date of Registration: Jun 1960
Age at Death: 73
Registration district: Poole
Inferred County: Dorset
Volume: 7c
Page: 673



Enid was effectively adopted by Edith Bennett, it would seem ... there was no official/legal adoption procedure in the 1920s, so long-term fostering served essentially the same purpose informally (although without giving the child rights) and of course probably provided a single woman like Edith with benefits so she could afford to take children in

now ... are you also wanting to find Edith Bennett and her family? :-)

Thank you to everyone who replied to my post yesterday. (I am a little puzzled that I am shown here as "Unknown," too, as my account with GR is still current). I had already discovered the records described above regarding Enid and her two marriages, and the Sheminant connection in Australia (I also now live in Australia), and was aware that Enid died in 1984; but having now received a copy of her birth certificate, I have only just learned of Bernard Cornell and his wife Florence Gertrude (nee Gray), and found that they had other children, hence a search that led me to this post.

Although personally not being related to the Cornell family, I decided to respond to the original enquiry out of interest to know if the above-named brothers Robert and John Cornell had been aware they had a sister, since Enid was taken into foster care in or before the early 1920s. My father recalls she was known in her early years as Peggy Bennett, and grew up in the care of her foster mother Edith Bennett. My father and his younger brother, not related to Peggy, were also raised by "Mrs" Bennett (whom the children called "Auntie") in the 1920s and 1930s in the Brighton/Hove area. There was also another, older, girl named Lilian, whom I believe was Auntie's real daughter.

I first discovered Peggy's birth name from her 1940s marriage record. We have photos in our family albums of Peggy Sheminant, both with her husband and with her daughter, but I understand my parents lost touch with them in the 1950s. I believe Peggy's daughter still lives in Sussex, but I haven't been able to make direct contact with her. It appears she has at least three first cousins in her Cornell family, but I do not know if she is aware of this.

Interestingly, I had wondered if Peggy (Enid) had been taken into care due to her father, Bernard Cornell, having died in 1922 (as it appears from the BMD Index). However, as has been pointed out here, two younger siblings were born after this date, which is a bit of a puzzle. I don't want to pry too much, nor upset or offend anyone, but I did promise my Dad, now 94, that I would find out as much as I could about "Auntie" and the children in her care. After all these years, though, probably much of it will remain a mystery...

Anyway, thanks again to you all for your interest. Regards, Angela.

also, Bernard and Florence had one other child whom you might be able to trace

the birth was in 1931 so I won't put details here, search at freebmd and remember that Florence's name was GRAY

I can't trace that last child after marriage but they had one child it seems ... and I can't trace the child either ...


also in case this typeface is unclear the name in the above post is SHEMINANT

the original poster's husband Robert would be aged 85 now

and the original poster nearly that age

their children both had non-unique names with no middle initial and there is no marriage for either that leaps off the page

I can't seem to identify a birth for nephew Nicholas to help contact him


'Unknown', is what you would really like to contact family of Enid?

as she would be deceased now ...

Name: Enid D Cornell
Spouse: Ronald J Sheminant
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1940
Registration district: Bournemouth
Inferred County: Dorset
Volume Number: 2b
Page Number: 2355

there are two births with those parents' surnames, but they seem almost mutually exclusive ...

you can find them here

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

but both spouses remarried

Name: Enid Dewey Watson
Birth Date: 20 Feb 1914
Date of Registration: Feb 1984
Age at Death: 70
Registration district: Waltham Forest
Inferred County: London
Volume: 15
Page: 872

it does become complicated ... Enid's first husband appears to have emigrated to Australia :-)
Ancestry records show him on electoral rolls in WA in the 1950s

and I can see a marriage for one of Enid's daughters and find her on an electoral roll but only in 2002:

http://tinyurl.com/kua46rp

it's a pretty unusual name, to say the least, so I think you could be certain these are members of Enid's husband's family

http://tinyurl.com/kbwvd3c

and if they are his children, they would be half-siblings of Enid's children and might be able to put you in touch

it seems complicated but when it comes down to that, maybe not so much :-)

... also, just search on line for Sheminant in Australa, there are LinkedIn and Facebook pages for people all in WA that you could make contact through

No posts to their name means nothing....But Jan 001 plus nil posts means the account has been deleted

Might as well continue on here, as the first poster isn't going to come back

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
69 Charles St Hull, Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

Print transcription View image Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
Bernard Cornell Head Married Male 25 1886 Yorkshire Hull Painter And Contractor And Wallpaper Dealer Transcription
Florence Gertrude Cornell Wife Married Female 22 1889 Wiltshire Semley -



1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
47, Middleton Street, Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

Print transcription View image Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
John Cornell Head Married Male 46 1855 Commercial Traveller (Drapery) Bengeo, Hertfordshire Transcription
Sarah Ann Cornell Wife Married Female 41 1860 - Hull Transcription
Lillie Cornell Daughter Single Female 16 1885 - Hull Transcription
Bernard Cornell Son Single Male 15 1886 Clerk Hull Transcription
Claude Cornell Son Single Male 8 1893 - Hull



1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Mayfield Avenue, Sculcoates, Yorkshire, England

Print transcription View image Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
John Cornell Head Married Male 35 1856 Commercial Traveller Hertfordshire, England Transcription
Sarah A Cornell Wife Married Female 30 1861 - Hull, Yorkshire, England Transcription
Lily Cornell Daughter - Female 7 1884 - Hull, Yorkshire, England Transcription
Bernard Cornell Son - Male 5 1886 - Hull, Yorkshire, England Transcription

Marriages Mar 1911 (>99%)

Clamp Paul V Sculcoates 9d 235 Scan available - click to view
CORNELL Bernard Sculcoates 9d 235 Scan available - click to view
Coulson Florence C Sculcoates 9d 235 Scan available - click to view
Gray Florence G Sculcoates 9d 235

I expect the original poster has long since found this

CORNELL JOHN NORTON 1912 2002 2002 Deaths & burials North Somerset, Somerset, England

My understanding is that someone with no posts to their name is no longer on GR's books, and certainly not with a 'member since' date of January 0001

you could try researching the names using freebmd, or start your own thread asking for help

The initial poster only ever posted once so is unlikely to be a member now

You could try to make contact by sending them a message .If their email address is still the same they will receive your message and can then reply .

They can't initiate a message to you. If they are no longer a member

I realise it has been almost ten years since this enquiry was posted, and although I don't have any further details of John Norton Cornell, I am interested to learn more about the family of Bernard Cornell and Florence (nee Gray) whose daughter Enid Dewey Cornell (born in Bournemouth on 20th February 1914) grew up with my father in a foster home in Brighton. I do hope you will still be able to make contact, thank you.