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(sorry Susan, should be below!, have corrected!)

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/

Chris :)

Susan .............

Just a note re ages ...............

A person's year of birth will almost always vary by at least 1 year and sometimes 2 years on different censuses.

It depends on when a census was taken vs the date that a person was born.

Everyone had to give their age at midnight on the day of the census, and the people who transcribed the records for ancestry, FMP, etc, had to convert the age into birth year.

IF someone's birthday was before the date of the census, the birth year would be correct, but if their birthday was after the census date, then the birth year would be 1 year out.

Add to this, the fact that many people int he 19th century, really were not sure when they were born (birthdays were not important for many people), and even more errors creep in.


Then we won't mention the ones who lied about their age ............ usually because they were much younger or older than their spouse!


If you get further back, and are looking at the 1841 census, there is a further wrinkle ............. enumerators were told to mark the age of anyone over the age of 15 down to the nearest 5. Most did that, some (just to make it difficult for us) did not.

So when searching for someone 15 or older on the 1841, you have to put their age as (for example) 20 +/- 5

On all other censuses, it is advisable to put 20 +/-2



In short, never take the age/birth year in a census as gospel truth!

Thank you Chris too :) I can't actually get the link to work but the information is very helpful.

Thank you AustinQ and Dea!
This information has helped so much! After weeks of daily trawling through archives on Ancestry.com, and coming up with false leads, I am now finally getting somewhere :-D

William Thomas - baptism:

William Thomas Bates

in the Manchester, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1901 (Cathedral)
Record Image View

Report issue

Name: William Thomas Bates
Birth Date: 9 Jun 1850
Baptism Date: 30 Jun 1850
Parish: Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Father's name: Richard Bates - Pattern Designer.
Mother's name: Sarah Ann Bates
Archive Roll: 767



1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Leaf Street, Manchester, Chorlton, Lancashire, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Bates Head Married Male 23 1828 Designer Calico Printers Manchester, Lancashire, England
Transcription
Maria Bates Wife Married Female 23 1828 Bonnet Maker Manchester, Lancashire, England **Image says SARAH !
Transcription
Richard Bates Son - Male 3 1848 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Transcription
William Bates Son - Male 0 1851 - Manchester, Lancashire, England

Dea x

Douglas,Walter's son, died in 1999:

First name(s) DOUGLAS ALEXANDER
Last name BATES
Gender Male
Birth 10 Jun1924
Death quarter 2
Death year 1999
District HIGH PEAK
District number 3953
Register number 19
Entry number 008
Date of registration mm/yy 0499

No problem, Susan.

Yes, it appears that they were living apart in 1939- and as Walter has listed himself as widowed (when he was still married), it does seem that the marriage was having some problems!

The 1939 registers are on Find My Past.

The 1939 register was constantly updated as people married, hence why it shows married names even for people that married later.

Some records on the register are closed- usually to protect possibly living people.

This is Walter's daughter Irene in 1939 (she married Wallace Cottrell in 1930):

Cottrell Household 1 Bridge Grove , Altrincham M.B., Cheshire, England

Irene Susannah Cottrell 25 Sep 1906 Female Housewife Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Wallace Cottrell 15 Feb 1906 Male Bricklayer Heavy Worker All Cass Married
3 closed records
----------------------------------------------------------

Irene died in 1988

Oh wow! So it would appear Walter and Elizabeth separated at some point?! I am most definitely going to have to order their marriage certificate at some point just to be 100% certain.
AustinQ, you are extremely good at all of this :-D can I ask where you found the following information please?

His father, Walter in 1939:

Bates Household (3 People) 17 Barlow Terrace , Manchester C.B., Lancashire, England

Walter Bates 11 Dec 1878 Male Unemployed Steam Wagon Driver Widowed
Walter R Bates 16 Jun 1921 Male Butchers Shop Assistant Single
Douglas A Bates 10 Jun 1924 Male Apprentice Aircraft Fitter Single

Thank you for your time :-) :-)

Susan, it looks very likely that your Walter was born in Salford, but you would need his marriage certificate to confirm his father's name.

In 1939 his birth date is given as December 1878. That fits with this birth registration (Registered in the first quarter of 1879):

First name(s) WALTER
Last name BATES
Birth year 1879
Birth quarter 1
District SALFORD
County Lancashire
Volume 8D Page 14

Even though Walter is listed as Widowed on the 1939 register, I don't see an obvious death for Elizabeth before 1939- and on the death notice of their son John James, it doesn't say son of 'the late' Elizabeth Bates.

So just following their other children and think this is could be Walter's wife in 1939, with their daughter Elsie:

Lees Household (3 People) 29 Thurlwood Avenue , Manchester C.B., Lancashire, England

Elsie M Bates 19 Apr 1910 Female Underclothing Machinist Single
James Lees 11 Feb 1905 Male Iron Moulder Single 72 1
Elizabeth Lees (Bates) 30 Apr 1881 (Image has 1887) Female Housekeeper Married
----------------------------------------------------

Elizabeth goes on to marry James Lees in 1960, and passes away in 1970.

This is the death index:

First name(s) ELIZABETH
Last name LEES
Gender Female
Birth 30 April 1887
Death quarter 1
Death year 1970
District MANCHESTER
County Lancashire
Volume 10E Page 1254
----------------------------------------------

Elsie remained single and died in 2005:

First name(s) ELSIE MAY
Last name BATES
Gender Female
Birth 19 April 1910
Death quarter 3
Death year 2005
District MANCHESTER
District number 0061J
Register number J80B
Entry number 013
Date of registration mm/yy 0905
County Lancashire

Thank you for all of your reply's :)
I have found the service records that AustinQ provided when Walter signed up for the army in 1916/1917. These give almost identical information on Walters children and wife as the 1911 census. However, as you have noted, his Year and place of birth are completely different which is why I think I have struggled to get any further with my search. In the 1911 census Walters place of birth was documented as Leominster, Herefordshire yet in the service records it says Salford, Lancashire :-S Further to that, in the 1911 census he is aged 32 making him born around 1879. Yet in 1916/17, his service records indicate that he was 40 years old, making him born around 1976-1977. A couple of years difference for some reason. I had looked at Bates' in Herefordshire and there appears to be only one possible Bates family in Leominster around the time of Walters birth, yet the information doesn't seem to fit in with Walter (the Herefordshire family appear quite well off looking at their professions) . I can't understand why he wouldn't be honest about his place of birth or give an accurate age for himself :-S
I have found one member who has a matching relative who I have contacted so I shall have to wait and see if I get anything back from that :)
So I can be fairly confident that Walters parents are William and Mary?
I had no record of a Douglas or Walter JR in my tree up to now, how fascinating :-D
Thank you again for the invaluable wealth of information. I am still quite new to all of this, as you have probably all realised ;-)

Possible death for Walter:

First name(s) WALTER
Last name BATES
Gender Male
Birth year 1879
Age 62
Death quarter 3
Death year 1941
District MANCHESTER
County Lancashire
Volume 8D Page 217
Country England

Death of Walter's son John James:

Manchester Evening News - Tuesday 22 April 1941
BATES- On April 20, 1941 at his residence 18 Rosegarth Ave, West Didsbury, JOHN JAMES aged 27 - dearly loved husband of Annie Bates, also beloved son of Walter and Elizabeth Bates of 17 Barlow Terrace. Interment on Thursday 24 April at Southern Cemetery at 3pm.

Marriage:
Name: William Thomas Bates (Coach builder)
Birth Year: abt 1851
Marriage Date: 1 Feb 1874
Parish: Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Father's name: Richard Bates (Pattern Maker)
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Shaw
Spouse's Father's Name: John Shaw (Engineer)
Witnesses: Timothy & Catherine O'Shea
Archive Roll: 741

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1874

BATES William T SHAW Mary A Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church) Archives+, Manchester Central Library CATH

(could be above for William perhaps, from below link)

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/

Chris :)

I think Gins is right abut the incorrect place of birth on the 1911 census. Same family 1891:

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Croft Street, Pendleton, Salford, Lancashire, England

William Bates Head Married Male 41 1850 Coach Painter Manchester, Lancashire,
Mary Bates Wife Married Female 40 1851 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Mary A Bates Daughter Single Female 16 1875 Weaver Cotton Manchester, Lancashire
Caroline Bates Daughter - Female 15 1876 Seamstress Salford, Lancashire,
Walter Bates Son - Male 12 1879 Scholar Salford, Lancashire, England
Agnes Bates Daughter - Female 10 1881 Scholar Pendleton, Lancashire, England
Ernest Bates Son - Male 9 1882 Scholar Pendleton, Lancashire, England
William Bates Son - Male 8 1883 Scholar Pendleton, Lancashire, England
May Bates Daughter - Female 4 1887 - Pendleton, Lancashire, England
Jessie Bates Daughter - Female 2 1889 - Pendleton, Lancashire, England
Bertha Bates Daughter - Female 1 1890 - Pendleton, Lancashire, England
---------------------------------------------------------

and 1881:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
6, Madelaine Street, Pendleton, Salford, Lancashire, England

William Bates Head Married Male 30 1851 Coach Painter Salford, Lancashire,
Mary A Bates Wife Married Female 27 1854 - Salford, Lancashire, England
Mary A Bates Daughter Single Female 6 1875 School Lancashire, England
Caroline Bates Daughter Single Female 5 1876 School Lancashire, England
Walter Bates Son Single Male 2 1879 - Lancashire, England
Agnes Bates Daughter Single Female 0 1881 - Lancashire, England

Service record:

Name: Walter Bates
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1877
Enlistment Age: 40
Marriage Date: 20 Aug 1906
Marriage Place: All Saints, Manchester
Document Year: 1917
Residence Place: 47 Gardner St, West Gorton Manchester
Regimental Number: 315135
Regiment Name: Army Service Corps
Number of Images: 6

Family Members:
Name Relation to Soldier
Walter Bates Self (Head)
Elizabeth Davis Fletcher Spouse
Irene Susannah Bates Child 25 Sept 1906
George Henry Bates Child 22 Oct 1908
Elsie May Bates Child 19 Apr 1910
Winifred Bates Child 5 May 1912
John James Bates Child 11 Feb 1914
William Gordon Bates Child 3 Jul 1916

I think that the 1911 census may have his birth place listed incorrectly


1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
59, Grosvenor Street, Broughton, Salford, Lancashire, England

William T Bates Head Married Male 51 1850 Coach Painter Manchester, Lancashire, England
Mary A Bates Wife Married Female 46 1855 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Caroline Bates Daughter Single Female 26 1875 Shirt Makers Seamstress Salford, Lancashire, England
Walter Bates Son Single Male 22 1879 Dairyman Salford, Lancashire, England
Agnes Bates Daughter Single Female 19 1882 Garment Waterproof Maker Salford, Lancashire, England
Ernest Bates Son Single Male 18 1883 Tailor's Presser Salford, Lancashire, England
William Bates Son Single Male 17 1884 - Salford, Lancashire, England
Jessie Bates Daughter Single Female 13 1888 - Salford, Lancashire, England
Bertha Bates Daughter Single Female 12 1889 - Salford, Lancashire, England

George in 1939

Bates Household 313 Stanley Grove , Manchester C.B., Lancashire, England
George H Bates 22 Oct 1908 Male Aircraft Fitter Married
Annie E Bates 10 Feb 1908 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Closed record
Ronald E Bates 07 Aug 1935 Male Under School Age Single
Closed record
---------------------------------------------

His father, Walter in 1939:

Bates Household (3 People) 17 Barlow Terrace , Manchester C.B., Lancashire, England

Walter Bates 11 Dec 1878 Male Unemployed Steam Wagon Driver Widowed
Walter R Bates 16 Jun 1921 Male Butchers Shop Assistant Single
Douglas A Bates 10 Jun 1924 Male Apprentice Aircraft Fitter Single

Welcome, Susan ...........

To find out if any GR member does have any Bates families in their tree, you have to search trees yourself.

Go to Search at the top right

Click on Search All Member Trees

Enter a name and relevant information in the boxes ......... remembering that less is often better than more.

The names of members who have in their trees, if any, will appear.

You then have to contact each of those members individually by sending a private message (pm) to them through the GR system. GR sends an email to that member to let them know there is a pm waiting for them

Do give some detail on why you are contacting, why you think their Bates might be your Bates, and how you are connected to Bates.


After you have sent you message, keep an eye on your Sent Messages to see if it has been opened ..........

Go to Messages, click on Sent Messages

If there is a green envelope to the left of the name, the message has NOT been opened.

If there is no envelope, the message has been opened, and then you just have to wait to see if the member sends a reply. Some members may not do so.

The message may not be opened for several reasons, including ...............

member has changed their email address and not notified GR

member has lost interest and pays no attention to messages from GR

member has died or become incapacitated.



Good luck