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The other children on the 1861 census

Name: Maryanne Quinn
Baptism Age: 0
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 1836
Baptism Date: 11 Apr 1836
Baptism Place: St Andrew's, Dublin city, Dublin, Ireland
Parish Variants: St. Andrew's, Westland Row, Westland Row
Diocese: Dublin
Father: David Quinn
Mother: Elizth Quinn
.........................................

Name: John Quinn
Baptism Age: 0
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 1843
Baptism Date: 6 Jan 1843
Baptism Place: St Andrew's, Dublin city, Dublin, Ireland
Parish Variants: St. Andrew's, Westland Row, Westland Row
Diocese: Dublin
Father: David Quinn
Mother: Elizth Quinn
.................................................

Name: David Quinn
Baptism Age: 0
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 1847
Baptism Date: 19 Feb 1847
Baptism Place: St Andrew's, Dublin city, Dublin, Ireland
Parish Variants: St. Andrew's, Westland Row, Westland Row
Diocese: Dublin
Father: David Quinn
Mother: Eliza Quinn

Have been looking at the Quinn family and this looks to be a sibling of Bridget whose baptism was posted earlier:-

Name: Catherine Quinn
Baptism Date: 5 Mar 1838
Baptism Place: Westland Row, Dublin, Ireland
Father: David Quinn
Mother: Elizth

...............which leads me to think that the children on the 1861 census could be the children of above Catherine and Dennis Byrne

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1859
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
BYRNE Dennis QUINN Catherine Liverpool, Register Office or Registrar Attended Liverpool REG_LP/75/68


By the way, Argyllgran, you are correct about baptism, must have had one of those moments. Maybe too eager in wanting to find something that may be relevant.

a maybe
Elizabeth Burns

in the Liverpool, England, Catholic Burials, 1813-1988
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Name: Elizabeth Burns
Birth Year: abt 1867
Age: 1 6/12
Death Year: abt 1868
Burial Date: 22 Dec 1868
Parish: Ford Cemetery, Lancashire, England

It would appear that Michael Burns 1864, whose baptism Catherine posted, is from a different family, as his father is Michael, not Edward.


The trouble with Irish records is that they are so patchy, and that so many people have the same names!

The 1841 Dublin baptism of a Bridget Quinn with father David is only a wild guess, plucked from what shows up on Ancestry - she could perfectly well be a completely different Bridget.

The two Elizabeth Burns are a problem. One baptised 1867, but not on 1871 census, and one on 1871 census, apparently born c1860.
Surely they wouldn't have named a second daughter Elizabeth when the first one was still alive?
And why isn't the 1867 Elizabeth with them in 1871 (as has already been asked)?

Thanks All - Yes I agree with Maddie's info that all the children born in Liverpool will belong to Bridget quinn..her mother was called elizabeth and she has named her 1st daughter born after her and her 1st born son after his father edward.... the only question is......Is it the right Edward Burns & Mary Ann Burns...it would be good to find census information from Ireland detailing John Burns/ Mary Ann & Edward to 1 household.....Mary Quinn is from Dublin and I sense that are some family connections particularly with having Byrnes Catherine & David living with them...although I'm not sure if these are all siblings as Catherine Byrnes born 1858 from the 1861 census & John Burns burn 1858 from the 1871 census doesn't slot comfortably into place.

Marriage cert would be a good route for edwards father - but yes catherine I need to find the right one...more research required....it just gets harder & harder at each stage :-(

There is also this that would relevant to Edward Burns and Bridget Quinn

Name: Michael Burns
Birth Date: 7 Aug 1864
Baptism Date: 17 Aug 1864
Parish: St Patrick, Lancashire, England
Father's name: Michaelis Burns
Mother's name: Brigidae Quinn

...............what I am not sure about is that neither Michael nor Elizabeth (from baptism on previos page) are with the family in 1871 census?
They could, of course both have died and there are two possible deaths for Michael.

could Eward 1864 be this one

Edward Burns

in the Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
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Name: Edward Burns
Birth Date: 4 Jun 1862
Baptism Date: 30 Jun 1862
Parish: St Anne, Lancashire, England
Father's name: Edward Burns
Mother's name: Mary Ann Burns

Elizabeth Burns

in the Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
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Name: Elizabeth Burns
Birth Date: 24 Jul 1867
Baptism Date: 11 Aug 1867
Parish: St Anthony's, Lancashire, England
Father's name: Edwardi Burns
Mother's name: Brigetta Quin

Year Ref Church Forename Latin Version Surname Spouse Forename Latin Version Spouse Surname For Full Details of this Marriage
1866 149 ST AUGUSTINE BRIDGET BIRGITTAM QUINN EDWARD EDWARDUM BURNS REQUEST FORM


http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolrcmarriages/marriages.php

If Edward and Bridget married in Liverpool in 1866 then you could get the marriage certificate, it should give you Edward's father's name, which may be help in finding further information on him.
The cert. will also give you the name of Bridget's father, which will help confirm if 1861 census is the correct person.

Also, as Edward Jnr was born in liverpool you could also get his birth certificate will give you his mother's name and maiden name. This may give you the name of Edward's first wife. If Bridget, was his mother then it will give you her maiden name which will confirm, or not, if Edward married Bridget Quinn.



There are other marriages in Liverpool for an Edward Burns to Bridget ?

Marriages Dec 1864 (>99%)
Burns Edward Liverpool 8b 534
Fagan Elizabeth Liverpool 8b 534
Grimes Bridget Liverpool 8b 534
Rigby Joshua Liverpool 8b 534
Walsh John Liverpool 8b 534

and

Marriages Dec 1865 (>99%)
Burns Edward Liverpool 8b 603
Clarke Bridget Liverpool 8b 603
Stewart Charles Liverpool 8b 603
Wilson Rachel Liverpool 8b 603

...................so you would need to rule these out before saying that the 1866 marriage if definately correct.

Yes - I spotted that - I think it's just an error in transcript....I am fairly sure that it is Mary Ann.

I have set that event in my tree but I sm still looking for clues as to where her father Edward was born and who her Mother is.

regards

Lynn

Just to verify,
you are asking about Mary Ann Burns but the 1883 marriage record to James Cookson is for a Mary Alice Burns?

EDIT

Ancestry version of marriage record

Name: Mary Ann Burns
Gender: Female
Age: 26
Birth Year: abt 1857
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 3 Mar 1883
Parish: Preston, St Thomas, Lancashire, England
Search Photos: Search for 'Preston, St Thomas' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Spouse: James Cookson
Spouse Age: 26
Father: Edward Burns
Spouse Father: Richard Cookson
Register Type: Parish Register

if all these are linked that would mean Edward Burns born Lvpl in 1864.....but Edward & Bridget only married in 1866 Liverpool...they had a couple of Byrnes living with them in 1861 that were born 1858 & 1860...perhaps Mary Ann was back in Ireland looking after John & Elizabeth Burns and Mum died around 1860....it could fit !!

the 1861 census is intersting for the quinns as there are 2 Byrnes living with them.....but not Mary Ann....the plot thickens

Yes- that's the marriage record I obtained the information from for edward

is there a possible marriage for edward burns in the irish registers to mary ann's mum? whoever she is?

As you say Bridget may just be filling the shoes of the deceased...I would be amazed if she was Mary Ann's birth mother

??Marriage: 3 Mar 1883 St Thomas, Preston, Lancashire, England
James Cookson - (X), 26, Driver, Bachelor, 32 Frank St.
Mary Alice Burns - (X), 26, Winder, Spinster, 10 St.Georges St.
Groom's Father: Richard Cookson, Deceased, Shoemaker
Bride's Father: Edward Burns, Hawker
Witness: Patrick Thomas, (X); Margaret Ann Thomas
Married by Banns by: James P.Shepherd Vicar
Register: Marriages 1882 - 1889, Page 24, Entry 47
Source: LDS Film 1526113

Therefore another wild jump -

Bridget Quinn
in the Ireland, Catholic Parish Registers, 1655-1915
Name: Bridget Quinn
Baptism Age: 0
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 1841
Baptism Date: 24 Feb 1841
Baptism Place: St Andrew's, Dublin city, Dublin, Ireland
Parish Variants: St. Andrew's, Westland Row, Westland Row
Diocese: Dublin
Father: David Quinn
Mother: Elizth Quinn

also just possibly ???

Bridget Quinn
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Bridget Quinn
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: 1842
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: David Quinn
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland
Civil Parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Liverpool
Sub-registration district: St Martin
ED, institution, or vessel: 46
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 271
Piece: 2656
Folio: 61
Page Number: 50
Household Members:
Name Age
David Quinn 48
Mary Quinn 23
Bridget Quinn 19
John Quinn 17
David Quinn 13
Catharine Byrnes 3
David Byrnes 1

Possibly ???

Marriages Dec 1866 (>99%)
Burns Edward Liverpool 8b 484 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Kearney Ann Liverpool 8b 484
QUINN Bridget Liverpool 8b 484 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Whelan John Liverpool 8b 484

From 1871 census I'm pretty sure John Whelan married Ann Kearney.