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Looking for mother of Ellen Horan 1/11/1896

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Deborah

Deborah Report 13 Jun 2016 19:19

I believe her name is Margaret Trimble or Quills from Queenstown Ireland, Married to James Murphy also from Queenstown has a son John Murphy in America recently died in 2013. If anyone has any information I would much appreciate your help.
I am a novice at this searching.

Thank you
:-D

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 13 Jun 2016 19:31

Have you tried family search site


Can't see her on the 1911 Irish census ,this looks her on the 1901 census

Born 1886/7 though not 1896
1901 census
Residents of a house 26.1 in Queen Street (Queenstown Urban No. 1, Cork)
Surname Forename Age Sex Relation to head Religion
Horan Margaret 40 Female Head of Family R Catholic occ pedler. married
Horan Ellen 14 Female Daughter R Catholic
Horan Margaret 13 Female Daughter R Catholic
Horan Mary 7 Female Daughter R Catholic
Horan Christopher 4 Male Son R Catholic


Edit
Can't be the same family as Ellen is married now but not to Murphy
1911 census

Census Years1911CorkQueenstownHarbour TerraceResidents of a house
Residents of a house 10.3 in Harbour Terrace (Queenstown, Cork)
Show all information
Surname Forename Age Sex Relation to head Religion
Horan Margaret 50 Female Head of Family Roman Catholic
Leahy Ellen 24 Female Daughter Roman Catholic
Horan Mary 18 Female Daughter Roman Catholic
Leahy James 2 Male Grand Son Roman Catholi

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 14 Jun 2016 09:18

Did she marry in Ireland or in America ?

The marriagee cert should give some details

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it Report 14 Jun 2016 09:46

A public tree on Ancetsry has this record


Ellen Horan

Birth: 1 November 1896 (1 Nov 1896) - Eire (Ireland)
Marriage: 23 Apr 1917
Spouse: James Murphy
F: (Name Unknown)
M. Margaret Trimble

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 14 Jun 2016 10:16


As you have the exact DOB, does that mean you have Ellen's birth cert?
What does it say?
Or have you taken the date from that tree on Ancestry?

Was Margaret Trimble/Quills married to Mr Horan?
What was his first name? [EDIT: for what it's worth, the tree says his name was James, but gives no proof or dates - presumably his name's on the children's Birth certs?]

Why either Trimble or Quills? Do you mean she had been married before, or are there two different Margarets in the running?

The tree shows the census records as posted above by Shirley. When did Ellen marry James Murphy, and when was the son born? Would she have had time to have been married before to Mr Leahy as suggested in the 1911 census?

[EDIT: Oh yes, just noticed the supposed date of 1917 for marriage to James Murphy ]

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 14 Jun 2016 10:29

I suspect that tree is badly researched, and should be taken with a large pinch of salt - the census records at least can't be the right Ellen.
As Shirley has said, the age of the one on both census records is way out from 1896.
(Again, where did you get her DOB from - is it from an actual record, or just from someone else's say-so?)

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 14 Jun 2016 10:35

Maybe the marriage of the one in the censuses (whether or not she's your Ellen ):

Ellie Horan
in the Ireland, Civil Registration Marriages Index, 1845-1958
Name: Ellie Horan
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun, 1907
Registration district: Cork, Ireland
Volume: 5
Page Number: 134
FHL Film Number: 101261
Records on Page:
Name
John Dowdy
Thomas Leahy <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Agnes Hallahan
Winifred Smith
George Metcalfe
Ellie Horan
Mary M'Carthy
John O'Leary


I know this concentration on Ellen doesn't appear to help find Margaret Trimble /Quills - but just trying to make sense of the family.

AustinQ

AustinQ Report 14 Jun 2016 10:36

The family that Shirley put the 1901 & 1911 census for appear quite a few times in the criminal records on FMP. James Horan was accused of assaulting his wife 1901, Margaret Horan was accused of assaulting Ellen Leahy 1907.

AustinQ

AustinQ Report 14 Jun 2016 10:44

Perhaps you mean surname Trindles?

Marriage
Name: James Horan
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar, 1886
Registration district: Cork, Ireland
Volume: 5
Page Number: 122
FHL Film Number: 101255
Records on Page:
Name
James Horan
Kate Keane
Margaret Trindles<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Andrew Connell
Daniel O'Connor
John O'Brien
Margaret O'Brien
Lizzie O'Callaghan
Ellen Murphy
-------------------------------------------------

AustinQ

AustinQ Report 14 Jun 2016 12:11

OK, so this is where the DOB came from?:

Additional information,
Church Baptism Record
Name: Ellen Horan Date of Birth: 01-Nov-1886
Date of Baptism: 07-Nov-1886
Address: Old Street Parish/District: COBH
Gender: Female County Co. Cork
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: James Horan Mother: Margaret Quills
Informant 1: John Dorney Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2: Mary Flynn
Notes:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1312050

ArgyllGran

ArgyllGran Report 14 Jun 2016 12:26

So ten years out re DOB - and could therefore be the Ellen on the censuses.

Deborah, what actual records have you found to lead back to your Ellen?
What do you know to be fact?

We're in danger of becoming lost in a maze of guesswork.

AustinQ

AustinQ Report 14 Jun 2016 12:36

From what I can gather this is Ellen's 2nd marriage:

name(s) ELLEN LEAHY
Marriage quarter 2
Marriage year 1917
Spouse: JAMES MURPHY
Spouse's last name MURPHY
District CARDIFF
County Glamorganshire
Country Wales
Volume 11A Page 759
-----------------------------------------------------

They have children:

MURPHY CATHERINE M 1921 Cardiff, Glamorganshire, Wales
MURPHY CHRISTOPHER 1921 Cardiff, Glamorganshire, Wales
MURPHY JOHN J 1917 1917 Cardiff, Glamorganshire, Wales
MURPHY MARGARET M 1919 Cardiff, Glamorganshire, Wales
---------------------------------------------------------

Is this the family in US?

1940 United States Federal Census

Ireland James Murphy Head Married Male 49 1891
Eire Ellen Murphy Wife Married Female 53 1887
Wales John J Murphy Son Single Male 22 1918
Wales Margaret Murphy Daughter Single Female 19 1921
Wales Catherine Murphy Daughter Single Female 18 1922
New York Eleanor Murphy Daughter Single Female 8 1932

Street: East 94 Street
House Number: 1421
Inferred Residence in 1935: New York, Kings, New York
------------------------------------------------------

Death of Eleanor- showing Mum's maiden name:

Name: Eleanor Mary Murphy
[Eleanor Mary Sommers]
[Eleanor Sommers]
SSN: 072261329
Gender: Female
Race: White
Birth Date: 3 Feb 1932
Birth Place: Brooklyn Kin, New York
Death Date: 1 May 1993
Father: James Murphy
Mother: Ellen Horan
Type of Claim: Original SSN.
Notes: Jan 1950: Name listed as ELEANOR MARY MURPHY; Sep 1953: Name listed as ELEANOR MARY SOMMERS; 06 May 1993: Name listed as ELEANOR SOMMERS

AustinQ

AustinQ Report 14 Jun 2016 13:16

It seems some of Ellen's siblings also travelled to US- have you got details on them?

Do their Birth certificates state mother as Quills or Trindles?

Christopher's birth:

First name(s) Christopher John
Last name Horan
Registration year 1896
Registered quarter/year Oct - Dec 1893
Registration district Cork
Volume 5
Page 158
Mother's last name (original) -
County Cork
Country Ireland
----------------------------------------

Do you have the marriage certificate for Ellen and James Murphy?

AustinQ

AustinQ Report 14 Jun 2016 14:12

The Baptism of Christopher John Horan is on Rootsireland- mother's surname is listed as unclear- Margaret Tringles.

On the Baptism of Ellen's sister, Margaret, mother's surname is listed as Tringle

AustinQ

AustinQ Report 14 Jun 2016 14:23

It is possible that Mother Margaret was married before.

Although she would be very young, there is this marriage in 1875:

Name: Margaret Tringle
Date of Registration: 1875
Registration district: Cork, Ireland
Volume: 15
Page Number: 91
FHL Film Number: 101252
Records on Page:
Name
Catherine Conroy
Timothy Murray
Hannah Fitzgerald
Catherine Conroy
James Brenan
Margaret Trindle<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Margaret Tringle<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Denis O'Brien<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Ellen Riordan
James Hurley
-----------------------------------------------------

and maybe the 1886 marriage is her listed twice?

Marriage
Name: James Horan
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar, 1886
Registration district: Cork, Ireland
Volume: 5
Page Number: 122
FHL Film Number: 101255
Records on Page:
Name
James Horan
Kate Keane
Margaret Trindles<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Andrew Connell
Daniel O'Connor
John O'Brien
Margaret O'Brien<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Lizzie O'Callaghan
Ellen Murphy
-----------------------------------------

I think to further your tree you would need the 1886 marriage certificate to see who Margaret lists as her father. - The Tringle name seems to be transcribed in all sorts of ways- Trimble/ Trimbal/Tringle/ Trindle/ Trindal all with or without an s on the end.

Deborah

Deborah Report 16 Jun 2016 14:14

The only information I have is Ellen Horan's date of birth 1/11/1896 and James Murphy 24th of June or July 1890. They married in Cardiff on the 23/4/1917. John Murphy their son gave us this little information he had before he passed away in 2013. He lived in O'Fallon Mo 63366 Rosedale Drive America. Ellen is the sister of Margaret Brice Nee Horan of Queenstown Ireland. Thank you all for the information you have found so far. I don't have any certificates to go on.

Deborah

Deborah Report 16 Jun 2016 14:23

Austin your information seems to be more accurate to what information we have accept the marriage certificate of Margaret Horan and Charles John Brice from COBH Parish states Margaret Horan's parents are James Horan and Margaret Trimble/Trunkles the person writing the certificate was not able to identify the surname correctly they put Trunkles but John son of Ellen states it is Trimble.

Deborah

Deborah Report 16 Jun 2016 14:35

We visited COBH Ireland to see where Margaret Horan lived and got the marriage certificate while we was there. Margaret Horan is the sister of Ellen and my husbands grandmother . Eileen Watkins nee Brice my mother in law is the daughter of Margaret Horan and she very little of her mothers family tree. Especially as they all moved to America. James Brice and Julia Coffee where witnesses to Margaret and Charles John Brice marriage July 18th 1909 COBH Parish.

Deborah

Deborah Report 16 Jun 2016 14:37

John Murphy son of Ellen Horan was born 3 days after she got married on the 23/4/1917.

AustinQ

AustinQ Report 16 Jun 2016 15:24

Margaret and James had several children (some died young) on all the baptisms (apart from Ellen's) the transcrption gives mother's name as Tringle Tringles Singles and Trindals. The only way I can see of progressing is to buy the 1886 marriage certificate to see who Margaret's father is.

father on all James Horan

Name: Ellen Horan
Date of Birth: 01-Nov-1886
Date of Baptism: 07-Nov-1886
Address: Old Street Parish/District: COBH
Mother: Margaret Quills

Name: Margaret Horan
Date of Birth: 01-Aug-1888
Date of Baptism: 02-Aug-1888
Address: Old Street Parish/District: COBH
Mother: Margaret Tringle

Name: Patrick Horan (died 1897)
Date of Birth: 23-Jul-1890
Date of Baptism: 24-Jul-1890
Address: Queen St
Mother: Margaret Trindals

Name: James Horan (possible death 1892)
Date of Birth: 31-Oct-1891
Date of Baptism: 01-Nov-1891
Address: Old St. Parish/District: COBH
Mother: Margaret Singles

Name: Mary Horan
Date of Baptism: 11-Dec-1892
Address: Old Street Parish/District: COBH
Mother: Margaret Tringles

Name: Daniel Horan (possible death 1896)
Date of Birth: 14-Nov-1894
Date of Baptism: 18-Nov-1894
Address: Harbour Terrace Parish/District: COBH
Mother: Margaret Tringles

Name: Christopher John Horan
Date of Birth: 07-Nov-1896
Date of Baptism: 08-Nov-1896
Address: Harbour Terrace Parish/District: COBH
Mother: Margaret Tringles