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My great gran name Gladys Marshall , she had my nanny and another child by two different men she was unmarried, she did marry later but no name of husband, she worked in pubs and was from we think Thornton place Sunderland, my nan was born 1922, my nannas marriage to my grandad William Thomas Scott in 1935 my nana was called Winnifred Lillian Marshall marriage certificate has her brothers name down as her father he was called James (something beginning with an L ) Marshall and he was a butcher, any help greatly appreciated

Welcome to the boards Natalie - what is it you are wanting to find out.

Your opening post is a little confusing when read by someone who doesn't know - so hopefully this will help me at least - am I right?

Great Gran Gladys Marshall

She had 2 children by 2 different men - your 'Nanny' and another

Later married but husbands name not known

1 of her children was called Winifred Lillian Marshall born 1922 and she was your Nanny or Nanna
EDIT - you confirm dob as 14 .8.1914 in later post

Winifred Lillian married 1935 to Thomas William Scott

Winifred named her brother James on her marriage certificate as her Father
EDIT - from further questions asked and answers received, this may well have been her uncle rather than brother, so brother to her Mum Gladys

Are you sure she was born 1922 if she married in 1935 or have I got it wrong?
EDIT - you confirm dob as 14 .8.1914 in later post

Here's the marriage reference and that was 1935
England & Wales marriages 1837-2008 Transcription

First name(s) THOMAS W
Last name SCOTT
Marriage quarter 4
Marriage year 1935
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ THOMAS W SCOTT married
WINIFRED L MARSHALL
Spouse's last name MARSHALL
District SUNDERLAND
District number -
County Durham
Country England
Volume 10A
Page 1265

So sorry Winnifred Lillian Marshall was my nan born 14.8.14 ( don't know where I got 1922 from) she married Thomas William Scott in 1935, Winifred's mum was Gladys Marshall who had my nan Winnifred Marshall and Audrey Marshall but we think they had different fathers, Gladys later married but we don't think she married either of the girls fathers ?

So am trying to find any information on Winifred's parents I've Gladys Marshall and unknown father

This birth is in the same area as her marriage and the mother's maiden name is Marshall, so could this be your Nan - it would make her 21 when she married ( rather than 13)

England & Wales births 1837-2006 Transcription

First name(s) WINIFRED L
Last name MARSHALL
Birth year 1914
Birth quarter 3
Registration month -
Mother's last name MARSHALL
District SUNDERLAND
County Durham
Country England
Volume 10A
Page 1472

Her birth certificate could possibly name her Father if he agreed to it but as she was registered under the same surname as her Mother then I would expect not. In which case, it's unlikely that you will find out who he was unfortunately

When and where did your Nanna and Great Gran die Natalie - if we find the right person we can work on a year of birth from that.

EDIT - birth posted as you posted your reply.

Presumably your grandmother's birth.

Births Sep 1914 (>99%)
Marshall Winifred L Marshall Sunderland 10a 1472

Natalie, do you have an address on her birth cert?

Jan

There are 2 Gladys Marshalls Sunderland on the 1911 census, born 1897/8. Obviously you can't be sure where she was born!

?Your Nana's death - dob matches your posted dob

England & Wales deaths 1837-2007 Transcription

First name(s) WINIFRED LILIAN
Last name SCOTT
Gender Female
Birth day 14
Birth month 8
Birth year 1914
Age -
Death quarter 3
Death year 1983
District SURREY MID EASTERN
County Surrey
Volume 17
Page 0193
Country England

Was Audrey older than Winifred or younger? did she have another initial?

going by 1918 +/- 10 year with mmn Marshall there is
1913 birth mmn Marshall in Shardlow RD, Derbyshire and
1921 in Tynemouth Northumberland
1923 in Horncastle, Lincolnshire
1925 in Liverpool
1926 in Rochdale
then Audrey D 1924 Sunderland
and Audrey E 1928 Birmingham

"Winifred named her brother on her marriage certificate as her Father" is how your OP read to me and I asked if I was correct.

A later post seems to say that Winifred had a sister Audrey, (Gladys' 2 children?) so was James brother to Gladys rather than to Winifred? As he would then be older and you say he was a Butcher we might be able to find him on a census.

Did Great Gran have any further children that you know of after she married, and if so do you know any names?

I have three places but don't know what they relate to Bishop weirmouth, Thornton place Sunderland , and high Barnes terrace Sunderland

i will check with my mum re brother James situation and post back later

Ok so have spoken to my mum who only remembers sketchy information, the person named on Winifred's marriage certificate as her father was known to them as uncle jimmy Marshall so shared the same name and to be honest maybe could have been Winifred's father but my mum is not sure so he is not as I previously said Winnifred and Audrey's brother, no one knows if Gladys had anymore children but we don't think so

There is this Gladys Marshall in the 1911 census who has a brother called James (could he possibly by "Uncle Jimmy"?):-

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
6 Fore St Sunderland, Sunderland, Durham, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place

Robert Marshall Head Married Male Barman 38 1873 Close House Durham
Mary Louisa Marshall Wife Married Female - 37 1874 Durham Heighington
William Marshall Son Single Male Beer Bottle 17 1894 Durham Auckland
Gladys Marshall Daughter - Female - 14 1897 Durham Sunderland<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Robert Edwin Marshall Son - Male School 12 1899 Durham Sunderland
James Wilfred Marshall Son - Male - 6 1905 Durham Sunderland<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Doris May Marshall Daughter - Female - 3 1908 Durham Sunderland
Joseph Edward Marshall Son - Male - 1 1910 Durham Sunderland

Kath. x

If you don't have it, I think you need Winifred's birth certificate to check the address and it should give her mother's occupation if she was unmarried.

Again, if you don't have it, Winifred's marriage certificate may give an occupation for Jimmy Marshall so perhaps he could be identified on either the 1911 census or the 1939 register.

I don't see Winifred or her husband showing on the 1939 register in Durham.

Where do those addresses come from?
Also, it might be helpful if you could make out James' 2nd name on Winifred's marriage cert - whoever he is, it might offer a clue.

Interesting that Robert Marshall on that 1911 census is a barman.

Kathleen My uncles middle name is Edwin so that kind of ties in with above and there has been mention of a Doris , brumjien the addresses are just from my mums memory, we have Winifred's marriage cert but not birth cert but can't make out the writing very well

Kathleen My uncles middle name is Edwin so that kind of ties in with above and there has been mention of a Doris , brumjien the addresses are just from my mums memory, we have Winifred's marriage cert but not birth cert but can't make out the writing very well :-(

Are you able to copy the cert & send it (you can attach documents to personal messages on here).
If you can, one of us might be able to decipher the writing, you never know!