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Have managed to get a bit more info regarding the marriage cert:

Both Frank and Elizabeth's addresses are the Waverley Hotel. Frank's occupation is down as "Hotel cook". Her profession is not given. Frank's father is shown as deceased, occupation "Furniture packer".

Not sure if this gets us any further forward though.

Wow you guys have been so busy on this. I must say also mea culpa I too overlooked the electoral roll. There is certainly food for thought here. I will have to get back to you all after the year end as I am off to bonnie Scotland for family gatherings and my friend is also away. I started looking into this a while back and I don't recall all the details now so I will have to do a bit more digging on my side.

Regarding Tillard, I too felt this might not be the true name, but possibly a corruption of Tyler or Taylor etc. It may of course be a complete invention.

I found a death record for a Roy Tilliard Newman, b 24/10/41 who died in Croydon in 1999 but I couldn't find any other references for this name. However as the 1939 register closed entry may be a Newman son born in 1938 I am now wondering if there is a connection here.

Sorry guys that I will have to leave it at this for the moment. You have inspired me to have another go at this one. Thank you once again for all your help.

I'll be interested to hear what Frank's occupation was on his marriage - maybe work connected with the hotel?

We still also need to know what occupation he lists for his father.

Hopefully Lesley will get back us.

ah Austin, I was conflicted between that James Newman and another in 1911, but the naval record settles it



the only Jeremiah Barry in Poplar in 1939

Jeremiah Barry 1902
Emily (A) Barry 1900
2 more people who are officially closed

there is also

Jeremiah Barry 1893 Barking M.B. Essex
(no one else in household)

Marriages Jun 1923
Ainger Emily A Barry Poplar 1c 639
Barry Jeremiah Ainger Poplar 1c 639
(at least 7 kids)

just collecting possibilities ...

Births Sep 1918
Cullen Eileen W M -Newby- W.Ham 4a 391
(no marriage to fit those surnames, no other births with those surnames)

that Eileen seems to be in someone's tree here whose surname is somewhat interesting


Eileen Cullen is at the Waverley Hotel in 1954; no Barry or Newman is
(sorry, typo fixed - I had typed 1943)

in 1946, as you say Austin, all four of Eileen Cullen, Jeremiah Barry, Elizabeth with her name before marriage, and Frank Newman are there
(Eileen at least is incorrectly transcribed at Ancestry as being at Boswell House on the same page)

Jeremiah and Eileen are still there in 1947; the Newmans are gone

the names at the hotel are in alphabetical order, so we have no way of knowing what their connections were ... there may have been none, they may have just been friends/acquaintances by way of being neighbours in the hotel, which I would suspect

- edit - or as Austin says, working there, to be such long-term residents maybe

but thanks to AustinQ we now have a handle on where Frank was just prior to the marriage and where Barry and Cullen came from

Re Frank Reuben Newman- I don't see a matching births in the indexes either, but feel he must be a relative of Maud. The name Reuben appears in her family- her Uncle was Reuben, her brother was Thomas Reuben, and her brother Sydney has a child Reuben in 1912. There may be other Reuben's in the family also.

This may be Maud's brother in the RN 1901:

Name: James Newman
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1881
Relation to Head: Crew
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Bath, Somerset, England
Civil Parish: Vessels
Town: Malta
County/Island: Royal Navy
Registration district: Royal Navy at Sea and in Ports Abroad
Sub-registration district: RN Ships
ED, institution, or vessel: Illustrious
Piece: 5326 Folio: 43
Page Number: 11 Household schedule number: 1
------------------------------

His Naval Record (which I think runs until April 1911?

Reference: ADM 188/323/189872
Description: Name Newman, James
Official Number: 189872
Place of Birth: Bath, Somerset
Date of Birth: 01 December 1880
Date: [1896]
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Former reference in its original department Vol No.189-2
Legal status: Public Record
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6699820

well the 1946 electoral roll is certainly interesting re the witnesses!

I am always amazed how one can get a new toy (the 1939 register) and forget the old ones (electoral rolls) ... and by 'one' I mean 'me' :-)

(although I guess this was one reason I did persist in asking the year of the marriage)

so the witnesses were apparently closely connected after all

and I wonder whether Eileen Cullen might be the aunt



for the 1939 household I was looking at, this is the only registration that could account for a Frank Reuben Newman born in 1911

Births Mar 1912
Newman Frank R W -Whittaker- Mile End 1c 811

this seems to be the only death that would match that birth and vice versa

Name: Frank William R Newman
Birth Date: 25 Nov 1911
Date of Registration: Mar 1971
Age at Death: 59

The 1939 register suggested by Joonie- is for a Frank Reuben Newman (although I don't see a matching birth in the indexes)- this is them on the 1938 electoral register:

Year: 1938
County or Borough: Tower Hamlets
Ward or Division/Constituency: Poplar
Address: 6 Box Street

Frank Reuben Newman
Benjamin Thomas
Benjamin Robert John Thomas
Maud Thomas

Looking that JoonieCloonie's post 00:05 it looks like Stephen Newman married Emma Mary Ann Taylor in 1873. Just wondering whether father of Frank could have been referred to as James Taylor Newman and middle name could have been misheard as 'Tillard'....there are certain sound similarities.... just a thought!

Frank in 1947:

Name: Frank Newman
Name: Elizabeth Newman
Year: 1947
County or Borough: Camden
Ward or Division/Constituency: Holborn and St Pancras
Address: Waverley Hotel, 132 Southampton Row

He's listed at the same address in 1946- Elizabeth is also there under her maiden name. Witnesses to the marriage, Jeremiah Barry and Eileen Cullen are also at the same address (Perhaps all hotel employees?). So I suspect this will be the address on the marriage certificate.

-----------------------------------------------------------

I wouldn't discount this Frank on the 1939 register just yet.

"Using 21st July (1910 + or- 2years) brings only one Frank Newman on the 1939 register:

Newman Household Gillingham M.B., Kent, England
Frank Newman 1909
Kathleen E M (Edith May) Jarashek,Newman 1918
1 more person who is officially closed "

Although the lady he's living with has the Newman surname, I don't think he married her. Kathleen Edith May Newman later takes the surname Yuraszek (although pronounced Jarashek). Her maiden name was Steel. The closed record is most likely her son (Newman surname) born in 1938.

In 1946 Kathleen E M Newman is not with Frank- she is living with an Edith F Steel in Hounslow West Ward.

I'd been fiddling with this so I'll just leave it here for now


here is a possibly interesting Frank Newman in 1939 if Poplar might fit

Frank Newman 1911 Poplar London
Benjamin Thomas 1882 Poplar London
Benjamin Thomas 1915 Poplar London
Maud Thomas 1883 Poplar London

Marriages Jun 1910
THOMAS Benjamin James Poplar 1c 644
Newman Maud Poplar 1c 644

if that Frank's year of birth is accurate on the 1939 register, he is not a child of the couple as he was born after the marriage, i.e. would have been a Thomas rather than a Newman

the couple in 1911

Benjamin Thomas 26
Maud Thomas 26 born Bath

family in Poplar in 1901 - all boys except Maud!

Stephen Newman 52
Emma M Newman 46
Thomas M Newman 26
Stephen Newman 25
Sydney Newman 19
> Maud Newman 19
Edwin Newman 16
Stanley Newman 11
Arthur C Newman 9
Frederick Newman 8
Horace J Newman 5
Thomas Taylor 38

however in 1891 there is a son James ... and also a son Frank

Stephen Newman 46
Emma M Newman 36
Thomas R Newman 16
Stephen Newman 18
Emma M Newman 13
James Newman 11
Frank Newman 10
Sydney Newman 9
Maud Newman 8
George Newman 6
Stanley Newman 1

Name: James Newman
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1880
Where born: Bath
corrected by an Ancestry user: [Finsbury, Middlesex, England] but that is probably incorrect

Name: Frank Newman
Age: 10
Estimated birth year: abt 1881
Where born: Bath

this could be James in 1911, or in any case a maybe interesting James

Name: James Newman
Age in 1911: 31
Estimated birth year: abt 1880
Relation to Head: Servant
Birth Place: Limehouse, London, England
Civil Parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address: 23 Barking Road, Canning Town E
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Barman
Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: Plaistow


I still think it is quite likely that the name 'James Tillard Newman' is a fabricated name, possibly including elements of a real name that could refer to Frank's father who was likely not married to his mother

(buying certificates would not really help as James Tillard Newman would have been born before 1911 so if his birth registration included a middle name, it would be shown in the GRO index, not just as an initial ... and no such birth exists)

it would still be worth knowing whether Frank's marriage certificate gives an occupation for his father and/or declares him to be deceased, and what address Frank gave as his own when he married

you aren't going to establish the details of his birth unless you find info that makes a trail to that birth ... that is the goal, not the means of reaching the goal :-)


my grandfather was born in 1901 ... but believed until he retired that he was born in 1900, probably because his mother died when he was a child and he grew up in various older siblings' homes ... he had his actual birthday only two days out, however

Thank you all for your time and suggestions. As I said earlier, all the obvious routes have been explored already. The 1939 entry does not look very likely. I guess unless we ever establish the exact details of her dad's birth it will be very difficult to go any further. But this has given me some more ideas for new lines of research and I will follow this up in the New Year.

Wishing you all a great Christmas and a successful 2016 with your own people hunting!

Thanks Londonbelle. Yes, that is the correct death certificate but we can't trust the DOB.

AustinQ : The witnesses to the marriage were Jeremiah Barry and Miss Eileen Cullen. They were apparently not family connections, but were simply asked to act as witnesses. She doesn't even believe they were friends of her parents.
I don't have Frank's address or father's occupation. I will have to check with my friend if she has this but I might not get back to this till after Christmas. The 1939 register entry would be worth following up. When I initially looked into this one the 1939 register was not available. Thanks for that suggestion.


Thanks to you both for your input.

There is this Frank Newman death with a birth 21 Jul 1910

Name: Frank Newman
Birth Date: 21 Jul 1910
Date of Registration: Sep 1979
Age at Death: 69
Registration district: Westminster
Inferred County: London
Volume: 15
Page: 1934

But if the Informant wasn't sure of Frank's dob this might be of no use whatsoever.

Who were the witnesses on the marriage?

What was Frank's address and father's occupation?
------------------------------------------------------

Just in case:-

Using 21st July (1910 + or- 2years) brings only one Frank Newman on the 1939 register:

Newman Household Gillingham M.B., Kent, England

Frank Newman 1909

Kathleen E M (Edith May) Jarashek,Newman 1918

1 more person who is officially closed

Wow, all these answers! Thank you to everyone for their suggestions. She does have the marriage certificate. Her parents were married in Holborn in August 1946 The name James Tillard Newman came from the marriage certificate. Her dad did not have a birth certificate. They used to celebrate his birthday on July 21st and they thought it was 1910 but it could have been 1911. They had no proof. She does not know the name of the aunt who brought him up, or whether she was from the mother's side or father's side. I suppose most likely the mother's side, in which case the surname could be anything. Her own mother's family were of Irish extraction and the remaining relatives on that side do not know anything about the father's family. The mother doesn't appear to have had any communication with his family. She believes her father was born in East Ham. The death certificate does not shed any more light on it. She does not know of any other relatives on her father's side.
I have researched my family for many years and could not get anywhere with this one. She also knows somebody who had worked on one of the TV series on missing relatives - I can't now remember which one but maybe WDYTYR. He has looked into it but also drew a blank.
She believes her mother was pregnant when her parents married, but the baby, a boy, was stillborn, presumably in 1946 or 1947, and presumably in London. Even if we obtained the certificates here, as her father was not sure of his background I doubt if that would help.
The name Tillard is unusual and could have been a surname from a previous generation. However as he did not have a birth certificate her father may not have got the name right. Her father did not have a middle name - that he was aware of anyway. It does seem unusual that someone could have so little documentation but I guess in those days things were not so strictly followed up as now. That is why I have posted the name on here in the faint hope that somebody might come across a guy with this name.
I hate being defeated when researching somebody but here there is so little to go on. As Newman is quite a common name it could become rather expensive in buying certificates in the hope that there might be a Tillard somewhere in them. There are a lot of T Newmans.
I fear this one will remain a mystery. The DNA test could be interesting but again is probably a long shot. I will mention it though.
I am grateful to all of you for your help.

I have a little theory ... probably completely irrelevant but theories serve to illustrate possibilities, when there is no answer after diligent searches


Marriages Sep 1883
> MEWISE Alice Lichfield 6b 641
TWAMLEY Charles Lichfield 6b 641

Births Mar 1890
TWAMLEY Elizabeth Jane Lichfield 6b 464

1901 census in Yoxall, Staffordshire

Charles Twamley 48
> Alice J Twamley 35
Edith Twamley 17
Charlie Twamley 15
> Jane E Twamley 11
Fredk T Twamley 9
James Y Twamley 7
Arthur Twamley 5
Francis S Twamley 3
Kathleen A Twamley 1

Marriages Sep 1898
> MEWIS Edith Greenwich 1d 1905
SEYMOUR John Greenwich 1d 1905

Edith Seymour = sister of Alice Mewise Twamley, thus aunt of Elizabeth/Jane

(Edith in 1881 and Alice in 1871 are in Yoxall, daughters of John and Ellen Mewis, Edith being born after 1871 and Alice having left home by 1881)


1911 census in West Ham

Name: Frank Twamley
Age in 1911: 1/12
Estimated birth year: abt 1911
> Relation to Head: Nephew (actually great-nephew I think)
Birth Place: West Ham, Essex
Civil Parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex
Street address: 110 Percy Road, Canning Town E
Registration district: West Ham

John Seymour 47
> Edith Seymour 33
John William Seymour 12
Edith Kathleen 10
> Elizabeth Jane Twamley 21 single > niece
> Frank Twamley 1 month > nephew


Elizabeth/Jane was hustled off to London to stay with an aunt when she had her child? or was already working there as a servant (her occupation in 1911) when she became pregnant?

this birth does not fit since the child would have been 2 years, not 1 month

Births Mar 1909
TWAMLEY Frank Lichfield 6b 492

... and he is actually with Elizabeth/Jane's parents in 1911 and shown as their second youngest child

and there is no death of a Frank Twamley born 1911 (I include Francis in these searches) ... including war deaths ... and no emigration record
(Frank Twamley born 1909 died in 1993)

only two Frank Twamley marriages ever (1909 father and son)

and no Frank Twamley 1911 on the 1939 register


probably Elizabeth/Jane's marriage

Marriages Jun 1912
Shuttleworth George S Twamley Aston 6d 630
Twamley Elizabeth J Shuttleworth Aston 6d 630

with a birth immediately in Aston and numerous births following in Tamworth, and she probably died in 1948 in Sutton Coldfield

no Frank Shuttleworth death to match the 1911 Frank Twamley either

Elizabeth Jane Shuttleworth is in two trees at this website (birthdates not accurate in the trees, 1891 and 1895, but obviously correct person)

the 1909 Frank is in two trees here (one belonging to his son?) but there is no 1911 Frank in a tree


thank goodness for unusual surnames occasionally, anyway!


now this is a fine theory for showing how a child of unmarried parents ends up possibly living with an aunt and with a name of unknown origin (whatever name this Frank Twamley was born with and ended up with) ... but I don't see a birth in quarter 1 or 2 in West Ham that shows any obvious connection with our Frank Newman :-)

(there were two Frank Ns born in West Ham in Q1 1911 ... a middle initial, in the case of unmarried parents where the child was registered in the mother's surname, often stood for the father's surname ... but Frank Norman Rowe and Frank Noel Cruse were both with their parents in 1911)


still, this 1911 Frank Twamley had to become someone ...


and of course here is where I say: I would recommend your friend do an autosomal DNA test ('family finder' at Family Tree DNA, on sale until the end of 2015!) which can identify relationships up to 5th cousin ... IF someone who is related has tested

this would be a shot in the dark if there were no person to compare to ... but if someone could be identified who might be related to Frank Newman, on either mother's or father's side (there are many Twamley descendants, for example, particularly of that Frank's mother, just to keep using that Frank as an example), one of them might agree to test for comparison

was your friend's mother Mabel?

I just wondered about this record in the 1939 register, the closest I see

Newman Household East Ham C.B., Essex, England
Frank (C) Newman 1911
Mabel Newman is also on this record
1 more person who is officially closed

no wait, this is that Mabel:

Mabel Newman 1881


we do need some more info ... that could be your Frank with an aunt Mabel for instance, but only if his wife had died young ... or he was not yet married by 1939?

Lesley, one thing your friend does know is where and when her father died

with that info we could see what his full name and exact birthdate given on his death registration are

I'm wondering whether Newman was maybe Frank's mother's name and his parents were not married, and this would also explain being reared by an aunt

presumably the aunt had no children if there is no other family now

possibly James Tillard was his father's name (not Newman)

there is no record of anyone by that name ...but a James Edwin Tillyard married in Holborn in 1910 and was in Islington in the 1911 census, a wine cellarman

conversely, it could be that Frank's birth was registered under his mother's name and he knew who his father was and assumed his surname

I really would tell your friend she must start with her parents' marriage certificate, although perhaps she has it since she knows of the witnesses

even if someone gives made-up information about their father when they marry (for instance 'James Tillard Newman' if there is no such person), that is info worth knowing

Does your friend know her father's birthday? This could help narrow down a birth in the indexes.

However, as Margee says, the normal way to research would be to buy her parents marriage certificate first.

Could her father have been Francis?

Births Jun 1910
NEWMAN Francis Albert Croydon 2a 297

Have you found him on the 1939 register?