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However both trades work in wood and we are talking about 1860s and it wasn't his father who wrote on a certificate it was Thomas so he wouldn't necessarily understand the difference between the trades, so to him shipwright with someone who works with wood on ships ie ships carpenters. people are recorded as being engineers on the census forms but in actual fact they are mechanics or operators of machines.

I'm sorry Jacqueline but I disagree on one point.

A shipwright is not the same as a 'Carpenter' BUT is extremely similar to a 'Ship's Carpenter'

It was more usual for a ship's carpenter to sail on board the ship and carry out his skills there along with other jobs as part of the crew whereas a Shipwright was usually based on land and transferred those skills to not only repairing ships when they came in for repair but also building new ones.

Many ships carpenters left the sea when they married and had families and became shipwrights.

Dea x

shipwright
Also found in: Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
ship·wright (ship'rit')
n.
One that builds or repairs ships.

NOT the same as a carpenter

Both trades would be mortified to think they were being confused

Question
Is the church marriage record, as found on Ancestry, the same as the marriage certificate that can be requested from Gov BDM records? Are Gov BDM records copied from the church records?

That is interesting as the father is a shipwright on the 1871 census and on his church marriage certificate Thomas states his father was a ship's carpenter, which I think are roughly the same thing.

Thomas Thompson
England Births and Christenings
Name: Thomas Thompson
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 13 Mar 1853
Christening Place: SAINT PETER,LIVERPOOL,LANCASHIRE,ENGLAND
Father's Name: Edward Thompson
Mother's Name: Rosanna
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: P02027-6 , Syste

The probate extracts show the family relationships and pub licensee info.
Thomas Thompson of the King William Inn Bromley Cross Bolton Lancashire licensed victualler died 28 Feb. 1916.

Probate Manchester 7th April to Sarah MargaretThompson widow Effects:- £390.1.2d


Sarah Margaret of the King William Inn Chapeltown Road Turton near Bolton Lancashire widow died 9th February 1922
Probate London 24th March to George Herbert Thompson manager and Harold Thompson iron moulder
Effects:- £474.10s.0

His signature is on the church record and is similar bearing in mind they were 30 years apart:
Thomas Thompson & Sarah Margaret Dickinson cert 17April1881 Leesfield PC.

The pub records are from trade directories.

I'm in contact with a lady whose husband is related to Thomas' daughter, Elizabeth Hannah Thompson and she emailed me this:

My mother-in-law lived with her parents & Thompson grandparents in Turton (Bolton Lancs.) where Thomas was a publican for a couple of years before Thomas died. When Thomas died his wife Sarah became the licencee & subsequently my mother-in-law's father--Edwin Cartridge--took over.

Thomas Thompson's headstone reads:
Thomas Thompson 62 d.28Feb1916 & Sarah Margaret 67 d.9Feb1922 also Elizabeth Hannah (Thompson) Cartridge d.7Dec1936 & Edwin Cartridge 64.

No probs David, at least you will know for the future......

Just a thought - the 1911 census who you think may be him appears to have his signature on it (presuming he did the form and not his wife on his behalf? )

Anyway - do any of the documents you have found relating to his pubs have a signature on which you could compare?

I think you also have his marriage cert?

It might be worth seeing if you can match any of them to the 1911 census?

Dea x

Hi All
Sorry for not using existing thread, I can now see the value of only amending the original.
Thanks for all those submitting info.

Witness on church certificate:
William Arnfield was brother in law to Sarah Margaret's mother.
The other witness Henrietta Dransfield was Sarah Margaret's sister b. 1857.

Thomas Thompson, landlord at the Rising Sun, Knowles Lane, Altedge, Ashton under Lyne from 1890-95.
Thomas Thompson, landlord 1903-09 Henry Hunt Public House, 12, Brunswick Street, Oldham.
Thomas Thompson became landlord of “King William IV”, Turton on 3 March 1913 until his death 28 February 1916 when the licence was transferred to his wife Sarah Margaret effective from 1 May 1916.

For ref here as it is very difficult working from 2 threads at the same time:

George Thompson
in the 1891 England Census
Record Image View

Name: George Thompson
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation: Son (Child)
Father's name: Thomas Thompson
Mother's name: Sarah Thompson
Gender: Male
Where born: Lees, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Ashton under Lyne
Ecclesiastical parish: Bardsley
Town: Alt Edge
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:


Registration district: Ashton Under Lyne
Sub registration district: Knott Lanes
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3274
Folio: 12
Page Number: 17
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Thompson 39 Licenced victualler b.Oldham ??
Sarah Thompson 37 b. Lees
George Thompson 9
Harold Thompson 5

Dea x

Marriage 1903:
CARTRIDGE Edwin THOMPSON Elizabeth H St Peter, Oldham Oldham CEB/4/140
CARTRIDGE Frederick THOMPSON Elizabeth H St Peter, Oldham Oldham CEB/4/140
THOMPSON Elizabeth H CARTRIDGE Edwin St Peter, Oldham Oldham CEB/4/140
THOMPSON Elizabeth H CARTRIDGE Frederick St Peter, Oldham Oldham CEB/4/140





1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
15 Nutter St Oldham, Oldham, Lancashire, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
Frederick Cartridge Head Married Male 29 1882 Lancs Oldham Moulder Brass

Elizabeth Hannah Cartridge Wife Married Female 27 1884 Lancs Lees -

Thomas Cartridge Son - Male 7 1904 Lancs Oldham -

Elsie Cartridge Daughter - Female 5 1906 Lancs Oldham -

Fred Cartridge Son - Male 1 1910 Lancs Oldham -


Dea x

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
77 Retford Street Oldham, Oldham, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
George Herbert Thompson Head Married Male 29 1882 Lancs Lees Yarn Tester Transcription
Sarah Annie Thompson Wife Married Female 35 1876 Lancs Oldham Forewoman Yarn Winding Transcription
Albert Edward Shaw Boarder Single Male 24 1887 Lancs Castleton Assistant Secretary

So we know from the other thread that the 1911 census which gives a birthplace of Liverpool could well NOT be the correct Thomas Thompson !!!

So his birthplace remains Maryport ?? or Oldham or 'maybe' Liverpool according to whichever census you are looking at................

greyghost Report 22 Jan 2015 18:29

?? Is this the 1911 census you are looking at for Thomas b Liverpool

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
13 Sussex Street Oldham Lancaster, Oldham, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
Thomas Thompson Head Married Male 59 1852 Liverpool Lancs Inn Keeper
Sarah Marget Thompson Wife Married Female 57 1854 Lancs Ashton under Lyne -

Married 29 years no children

-------------------------------------------------
or this in 1901 where Thomas is b Maryport and Sarah in Lees (not Leeds) which would tie with her address on marriage

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
56, Savoy Street, Oldham, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Thompson Head Married Male 48 1853 Living On Own Means Maryport, Cumberland,
Sarah M Thompson Wife Married Female 48 1853 - Leeds, Lancashire,
George H Thompson Son Single Male 19 1882 Cotton Mill Book Keeper Lees, Lancashire,
Elizabeth H Thompson Daughter Single Female 17 1884 Cotton Reeler Lees, Lancashire,
Harold Thompson Son - Male 15 1886 Tailors Shop Assistant Lees, Lancashire,

---------------------------------
These are not the same family unless by 1911, they have disowned their children.
-----------------------------------

That was a waste of effort then !

Thanks greyghost.

David, do please keep to only one thread for the same person or family - that way we won't get frustrated by wasting time looking up info which has already been found and posted

Dea x

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1348829

Thanks..........I knew FMP wouldn't give me a bum steer.

Yes, I'm just about to try and find the thread!

Have you asked before about this man?

Name:Thomas Thompson Cotton Carder

Birth Year:abt 1853

Age:28

Marriage Date:17 Apr 1881

Parish:Leesfield, St Thomas

Parish as it Appears:Leesfield

Father's name:John Thompson

Spouse's Name:Sarah Margaret Dickinson

Spouse's Father's Name:George Dransfield

Wit: Henrietta Dransfield & William Annfield?

Don't assume that not mentioning Thomas in the Will is necessarily significant.

My great grandfather's Will does not mention my grandfather

Who witnessed the marriage?

Where did it take place?

What was Thomas's occupation?