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Charles dob was 17th September 1898.

sounds like a right character. MY cousin said her mum (still alive) remembers going to visit him in prison when she was a little girl but she wasn't born until 1929 so must be some later convictions as well somewhere.

Just another record for Charles. This is when he broke into a warehouse.


Home Office: Calendar of prisons Transcription

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First name(s) Charles
Last name Anderson
Age 22
Occupation Labourer
Birth year 1900
Year 1922
Session commencing day 13
Session commencing month Jun
Place London
Court Newington
Victim's first name(s)/alias Abraham
Victim's last name Shaer
Source A Calendar of Prisoners Tried at Assizes & Quarter Sessions
Series HO140
Piece number 373

He and others broke into the warehouse of Mr Shaer and stole 48 suits and other articles.
His sentence was postponed until the next session.




Home Office: Calendar of prisons Transcription

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First name(s) Charles
Last name Anderson
Age 22
Occupation Labourer
Birth year 1900
Year 1922
Session commencing day 27
Session commencing month Jun
Place London
Court Newington
Victim's first name(s)/alias Abraham
Victim's last name Shaer
Source A Calendar Of Prisoners Tried At The Adjourned General Quarter Sessions Of The Peace
Series HO140
Piece number 373

SENTENCE Bound over for 2 years and Probation Order made.

He was found guilty of receiving.

Mark do you have Charles Jonathan Harsant's exact date of birth?

you say you saw him in the 70s ... after 1969, the exact date of birth is recorded in the deaths index ... IF the person who gave the information had the correct date ... which might be unlikely in his case!

if you have that, a search can be done of the deaths index by date of birth, and a name that sounds related might come up

for info

Births Dec 1898
Harsant Charles Jonathan Hackney 1b 569


... Robert Frederick Church born late Sept 1898 and died in Colchester in 1973 was looking promising, but his death matches a birth in that name ...

Robert- that's looks like the step brother. He was born 1885. and Victoria Park Road is in East London and close to where they lived.

The link to the Howes site is great (thank you) and the address listed for Charles of 3 London Place ties in with other information.

Lots to ponder here. Thank you.

Charles seems to have been such a character. He didn't remarry ( that we know) I recall seeing him once in early 70's and last reports of him moving to Romford area.
We could never find a death record for him, but with all the given names he was using not an easy task.
Thanks you both for your help. Its answered a lot of questions and will now cost me a few quid to get hold of some certificates. So glad you experts are online to help, hope I can be service to others one day, :-)

sorry, missed the London connection :-)

and ah I see, the REAL Robert Frederick Anderson! not 'our' 'Robert'.

I posted the conviction in regard to the step-brother.

'However..to make things more complicated .. my grandfathers ACTUAL name was Charles Jonathan Harsant (b1898) but when he married Mary Florence in 1923 hew married her under his step brothers name of Robert Frederick Anderson ( b1885 d.1964) . '

It was a report in a Notts newspaper but actually occured in London.

The Rubensteins were Russian and were naturalised 26 Jan 1915. They were blouse manufacturers of 126 Victoria Park Rd, London.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29055/page/1031/data.pdf


I admit it may just be a coincidence but it may be yet another black sheep in the family.
:-D :-D :-D :-D

Yes, it was the 1919 Howes + HarsEnt marriage and the birth to that marriage I had seen and that seems to be the only choice available.

Since the birth was in the name HarsAnt it does seem likely to be the one.

I am circumspect sometimes because even though a person will be deceased, they may well have living children and these situations are rather delicate to be discussing in public about someone's parents.

There is a postem on the bride's name at FreeBMD with a link to a website, but it is an enormous database of names and isn't likely to find anyone directly related. In fact there are so many people by that name that it would even be difficult to identify her. Ah, he is indexed, and that identifies her.

http://www.howesfamilies.com/getperson.php?personID=I64312&tree=Onename

http://www.howesfamilies.com/getperson.php?personID=I64313&tree=Onename

The bride's apparent second marriage was in 1953, but it isn't shown on her index card there. Can't identify her death (the one possible seems to be a different person).



the Anderson conviction in Nottinghamshire seems to be for someone considerably older (1885 vs 1899) so I think that is a different person.

Interestingly enough, there is also this. Not sure if it's your Robert though.


Central Criminal Court: Calendars of prisoners Transcription


First name(s) Robert Frederick
Last name Anderson
Title -
Suffix -
Age 35
Birth year 1885
Trade/profession Labourer
Year 1920
Session commencing day 19
Session commencing month Oct
Place -
Victim's first name(s)/alias Joseph
Victim's last name/alias Rubinstein


COURT AND DATE OF COMMITTAL FOR TRIAL North London 28 Sept 1920
FIRST RECEPTION IN PRISON AND WHETHER ADMITTED TO BAIL 1 Sept 1920, bailed at court 8 Sept 1920
OFFENCE Breaking and entering the dwelling house of Joseph Rubenstein, stealing 3 pieces of crepe de chine and other articles and receiving the said property, knowing them to be stolen.
VERDICT Found guilty of receiving stolen goods but not of housebreaking.
SENTENCE To enter into his own recognizance in the sum of £5 for his appearance to hear judgement if called upon.



Nottingham Evening Post 16 September 1920
The report in this paper has Thomas Flatt, one of the accused, providing a statement stating that it was an insurance job perpetrated by a relation of the Rubensteins. The material stolen was nearly £4, 000 worth but was insured for £3k and he arranged for doors and windows to be left unlocked.
The house was 126 Victoria Park Rd.

I think this is what Joonie was wondering about.

BIRTH
Name: Ada E Harsant
Mother's Maiden Surname: Howes
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1921
Registration district: Hackney
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume Number: 1b
Page Number: 938



DEATH
Name: Ada E Harsant
Birth Date: abt 1921
Date of Registration: Jun 1921
Age at Death: 0
Registration district: Hackney
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1b
Page: 422


and marriage of the parents.

First name(s) CHARLES
Last name HARSENT
Marriage quarter 4
Marriage year 1919
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ CHARLES HARSENT married
ADA HOWES
Spouse's last name HOWES
District POPLAR
District number -
County London
Country England
Volume 1C
Page 944

I found the Central Criminal Court: Calendars of prisoners Transcription on fmp.

This family really did take the concept of changing your name to a different level didn't they? I'll bet they had no inkling that a few generations later, people would be tearing their hair out trying to make sense of their lives!! :-S :-S :-D

Robert/ Charles first child with Mary Florence was born in October 1923 so Mary would have been pregnant when they got married.

OMG !- You guys are experts. Where do you get the information for
Central Criminal Court: Calendars of prisoners Transcription? I knew he had a criminal record but was told he was a forger. I can never find this type of information !
Mary (age 56) was his mother and was a witness to the marriage. Although her second name was Jane not Ann as you state.
Long shot but do you guys know who & when his first marriage was ? what do you mean by this? ah, as Harsent perhaps? the birth to that marriage is as Harsant ... sadly died in infancy ... that bride too seems to have remarried later in life ... " ? - there were rumours that he had a previous marriage and that he accidently run over his infant child so this may be a clue.
I have his marriage certificate andas mentioned previously though the name on it is Robert Frederick Anderson, but he had 6 children each of them had different christian names or variation of.
A first marriage could also explain why he married under his step brothers name.

I have Marys birth cert. born 30th June 1900.

Thanks for all your help. My dad spent hundreds of pounds trying to gahter this inof when he was alive and you guys have been able to answer more of our questions it in days.

Explains it all! no need for a divorce because there was never a marriage ... a bigamous marriage is no marriage.

in theory, Mark, you should not be able to get a certificate for the first marriage, Anderson + Fleming ... when there was a bigamy conviction the registrar was supposed to note that on the record so that no certificate could be issued ... because a certificate is proof that a marriage happened ... which in this case it didn't, because it was bigamous

you might want to apply for one though just as a souvenir, if you could get it! ... or no, it sounds like you have it ... so the bureaucrats didn't do their job. :-)

so this is why her 'second' marriage in 1946 was under her original surname

just with her given names tweaked a little

ah no, it was probably the first time that she tweaked them; she was really born Florence Mary Fleming? (not seeing a 1900 birth to match either version)

oddly enough, there is no marriage for a Charles J Harsant!

Robert/Charles was born in 1899, that must be his mother Mary Ann Anderson, 56, who was convicted of aiding and abetting? ... she was actually Mary Jane Anderson per her marriage to Charles Harsant in 1891 (and 1911 census) ... she must have witnessed the marriage or some such


do you suppose he married the first time under a fakey name too? can't see a marriage ... I imagine his first wife would have divorced him on learning of the bigamy which would have given her easy grounds ... nothing at the National Archives, although the records aren't complete of course

ah, as Harsent perhaps? the birth to that marriage is as Harsant ... sadly died in infancy ... that bride too seems to have remarried later in life ...


but in any case he and his new bride stayed together in spite of the bigamy charge -- and you are here as proof!

I don't know if you have seen this. His name is different though?


Central Criminal Court: Calendars of prisoners Transcription

First name(s) Charles or Charles James
Last name Anderson
Title -
Suffix -
Age 24
Birth year 1899
Trade/profession Carman
Year 1923
Session commencing day 16
Session commencing month Jul
Place -
Victim's first name(s)/alias Mary Florence
Victim's last name/alias Fleming

He had a couple of previous convictions for theft, stealing an accordian on 3 March 1922 as Charles James Anderson, fined or 1 month and warehouse breaking on 27 June thus breaking his probation, but this is the interesting one.

COMMITTED FROM NORTH LONDON 7 July 1923
RECEIVED IN PRISON 7 July 1923, BAILED 9 July 1923
OFFENCE Marrying Mary Florence Fleming, his wife being then alive.
TRIED BEFORE The Recorder 16 July 1923
PLEA Guilty
Judgement respited.

EDITED

Also

First name(s) Mary Ann
Last name Anderson
Title -
Suffix -
Age 56
Birth year 1867
Trade/profession None
Year 1923
Session commencing day 16
Session commencing month Jul
Place -
Victim's first name(s)/alias Charles
Victim's last name/alias Anderson

Committed and bailed same as Charles.
OFFENCE Aiding Charles Anderson to commit bigamy
Trial and plea the same as Charles
SENTENCE 1 day without (h.l)

Well that explains a lot!




First name(s) Charles or Charles James
Last name Anderson
Title -
Suffix -
Age 24
Birth year 1899
Trade/profession Carman
Year 1923
Session commencing day 4
Session commencing month Sep
Place -
Victim's first name(s)/alias Mary Florence
Victim's last name/alias Fleming


ORDER OF THE COURT To enter into Recognisance to appear for judgement if called upon.


So he still was married to someone else and committed bigamy with Mary. Poor woman was only married a matter of days before he was hauled away to court.

The marriage would have been illegal so she would not have needed a divorce.

Sorry guys been offline.
These are my paternal grandparents. Misled you her name was Mary FLORENCE Fleming (b1900) not Mary Jane.
She married Robert Frederick Anderson in 1923 as JoonieCloonie pointed out.

They married in Hackney and he survived the war.
Mary FLORENCE remarried to William Moore in 1946

Hope that answers all the questions and apologies.

However..to make things more complicated .. my grandfathers ACTUAL name was Charles Jonathan Harsant (b1898) but when he married Mary Florence in 1923 hew married her under his step brothers name of Robert Frederick Anderson ( b1885 d.1964) .
I'm assuming if they did get divorced she would have divorced him under the married name not his real name. I've looked for both but to no avail.
I haven't got a copy of Florence second marriage cert. (yet)#!)
Appreciate your help .

I'd had a look, couldn't find a WWII death that looked likely, as he would indeed have been 40ish likely.

maybe Mark will come back and tell us what he knows ...


I'm getting the feeling this was not in England/Wales

Could he have died in WW2 depending on his age

actual names at marriage? for info

Marriages Jun 1923
Anderson Robert F Fleming Bethnal G. 1c 287
Fleming Mary F Anderson Bethnal G. 1c 287

so Robert married Mary F Fleming, not Mary Jane?

where was the 1946 marriage, and what name did the bride marry as?

there is no William Moore marriage to a Mary (or Jane) Fleming (only to a Florence, in Hackney), or to any Anderson, in 1946.


Info is not panning out ... what is the source of it?

Not usually but getting divorced then was a lot harder,There were fewer grounds for divorce then and adultery was one that was usually staged so that a witness could testify that the guilty party was followed to a hotel or such and spent the night with the other party.

Her new marriage cert should give her marital status at the time .

I dont think that many divorce papers from that time would still be available .

You could take a look on the National Archive site

What was Mary Jane's maiden name please? I'm not finding the marriages? What county are we talking about?