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BTW the address is Angelo Terrace, Arundell Street but unfortunately no return on Streetmap

Hello all who contributed and helped in this quest to find Charles' birthplace. The certificate came today and yes he was born in Sculcoates. 18/11/1887. I have the address and it looks like he was born at home. Thomas, his dad, was a boliermaker rivitter.

So at some point after 1886 they left Scotland and possibly returned by 1890 ( another childs birth year according to the 1901 census aged 11 , although he is not in the 1891 one).

Thanks All

Well, partly for you - I've never really known how Scottish registration was done in detail, so it was partly me figuring out for myself what went on and how this would impact indexing.
The bit of most impact for you is the end of the middle post (after the twins).

The third post was just if you wanted to see modern pics or old maps of this area (or any area in GB).

Thanks mgnv, were all your posts on the 8th for me? I will digest these.

For everyone's attention I have ordered the BC and will post on this when received.

When you get Chas's b.cert, it should have the address on it.
Lets suppose the addy is Strawberry Street - you can search for this at:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/
There's a HU9 (Hull) hit - click on it, and it takes you to some giant URL and embedded in the URL is the OS coords for the arrow tip, viz:
x=510933&y=429250 usually written as 510933,429250
This measures the easting and northing in metres from the zero datum point which is 80km W of Eddystone Rock.
The point is chosen, so that every point in GB and its offshore islands gets positive coords - so the S limit is abt 5km S of the Isles of Scilly, and the W limit is abt 5km W of Soay & St Kilda

One point of this is to get modern pics of the area.
When I zoom in to level 1, the arrow's a bit off, so decrease the northing by 40m to 510933,429210
So we have to convert the old style OS coords to the OS Landranger grid system, as follows:
Remove the laeding digits and replace the pair with the magic letters TA then write the rest of the string down to get TA 10933 29210
We can round this down to 10m precision TA 1093 2921; to 100m precision TA 109 292; or to 1km precision TA 10 29.
Using the last form, go to http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/TA1029
or even http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/TA1029?by=centi

Here's a pic on Strawberry St:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/525986
The blurb underneath gives an inset map, plus:
Subject Location TA 107 292 [100m precision]
so it's easier to locate the centi-square


As you can see from the images around here, there's been extensive clearing of the old housing stock, so there's a fair chance Chas's addy no longer exists.


So a word abt the English 1881 census - 1881 was given the class # RG11.
A subdistrict had one or more piece #s. [The PRO copyrights slip on the image will say RG11/4753 or whatever]
Each piece has several Enumeration Districts (EDs).
One could uniquely identify which page 3 one was imaging by adding the ED as SP does.
However, the PRO chose another method. During the filming, the right-hand (odd) pages were stamped using an increasing stamper - they went thru each ED, taking the EDs in order. (They even stamped the intro sheets.) At the end of a piece, the stamper was reset for the next piece.
Hence, every page 3 from a piece has a distinct folio # stamped on it. (This folio # was also associated with the unstamped following page.)

Here's a ships rivetter living in Drypool in 1881
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X3FL-PJP
Address: 4 Alices Bldgs
Affiliate Publication Number: RG11
Piece/Folio: 4753 / 113
Page Number: 3

The same system was used 1851-1901, but 1881, 1911 are the only ones where Ancestry has a transcribed addy.

So lets look for Alices Bldgs in 1881. Ancestry lets you use just bits of the ref # along with other stuff in the search, so go to:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=7572
and search for the keyword Alices in piece #s 4753 thru 4756
(to avoid pointless duplication, set "Relationship to Head" as head)
There are hits for Alice's Tce in 4754, but the Bldgs are in 4753.
Most are rg11/4753/113/3 or rg11/4753/113/4, but there's one hit on rg11/4753/114/5.

Now we want a nearby street that's also on a modern map, and it's quicker to leave out the page #, so lets remove the keyword & look at rg11/4753/113/
There are 14 hits for Alices Bldgs, plus 2 hits for James St - which no longer exists.
Checking rg11/4753/112 gets 15 hits for James St.
Checking rg11/4753/114 gets 1 hit for Alices Bldgs, plus 11 hits for Richmond Terr - which no longer exists.
Checking rg11/4753/115 gets 12 hits for James St.
Checking rg11/4753/116 gets 11 hits for James St, plus one for Strawberry St.

It looks to me like Alices Bldgs were on James St. To see where this was, go to:
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/ and enter the OS coords we found earlier, viz: 510933,429210 then select an old map.
In practice, I find 1:10560 too small a scale - use 1:2500 or better.
There is an 1891 1:500 town plan - the coords are smack at the junction of Strawberry St with James St.


Footnotes -
1) The blue grid lines on Streetmap's zoom levels 3 & 4 are 1km apart

2) Finding magic letters
E.g. a search for Turriff on Streetmap gets x=372500&y=850500
A search on geograph, then checking a likely hit:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2134287
NJ7250 : Turriff fire station

so NJ are magic for 3,8

Most of Scotland has magic letters beginning with N - the northern isles also use H.

The 2nd letter is given by the grid:

A B C D E
F G H J K
L M N O P
Q R S T U
V W X Y Z
(so I is not used, and E Aberdeensh just hits NK (4,8) around Peterhead,
and Kincardinesh straddles NJ/NO (3,8/ 3,7), etc)

For the 1911 census:
One can look up RG14/34628 at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Registration District: Holyhead
Registration Sub-District: Holyhead
Civil Parish, Township or Place: Holyhead Rural
RD 634 RS 3 ED 13

The GRO also oversaw some censuses outside the UK:
Isle of Man 34629-34752
Channel Islands 34753-34969
RN overseas 34970-34975
Army overseas 34976-34998

So, in England and Wales, there were abt 634 superintendent registrars in charge of an RD (abt as 3 anomolies).
Each Superintendent had from 1 to a dozen registrars under him, each in charge of a subdistrict.
I imagine the modern 32 RDs in SCT means that there are now 32 superintendent registrars (or equivalent rank and duties).

This structure is similar to Scotland's, except Scottish subdistricts were pretty much the 901 parishes in Scotland, and these weren't renumbered from census to census.
There are differences in the correction process, and in viewability - essentially, in England/Wales, one can only view the entry on a certificate one has purchased.
Also in England, one has twice as long (6 w) to rego a birth.

The big difference of concern here is:
"The original registers are preserved and held centrally by the Registrar General."
One consequence is B & D rego images on SP contain the informant's signature.

In England (Wales was part of the same system), one can order BMD.certs from either the local RD that holds the rego's for the place where the event occured or the GRO in Southport.
(One can also order m.certs from the church where a marr happened if they still hold the rego - old rego's are deposited in some archive - usually the county records office.)

Since the original rego's are held locally, identifying a local ref code for a particular entry is pretty similar to GROS.

Yorkshire Birth indexes for the years: 1887
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
CASEY Charles Drypool Hull DRY/43/192

So, a typical local ref has 3 elements:
1) a subdistrict (or church) code - this might be decoded for you (as here) or guessable (as here) or cryptic;
2) an identifier of which Drypool rego - here the 43rd one (GROS seems to use a fresh rego each year);
3) a local page or entry # - the registrars' rego's had 100 pages (so held 500/200/500 BMD entries) - the church rego's had 250 pp (500 entries).
Drypool is using entry #s - most local marr indexes use entry #s, so one knows who wed whom.

Here's twins with a page # element:
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1872
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
WARBURTON John William Bury South Bury BALDWIN BS/36/95
WARBURTON Martha Bury South Bury BALDWIN BS/36/95




At the end of each quarter, each subdistrict registrar (and church vicar) made a copy of all their B's & D's (and M's) in the last quarter.
These copies were made on special GRO forms, which, in the early years, had twice as many entries per page as the original rego's.
These copies were checked over by the superintendent, and the sets from each registrar were bundled together, and sent to the GRO.
For marrs, the superintendent had a duplicate of the church rego made and updated quarterly, and then forwarded the vicars' copies to the GRO, along with copies of his own registrars' rego's.
Pre-1899, only the C of E, jews and quakers, plus the registrars, were authorized to keep official reggo's.
Non-conformists had to have a registrar attend the ceremony with his official rehgo for the couple to sign to conclude the marr ceremony.
Registrars could also conduct marr ceremonies - which, unlike Scotland pre-1929, were not according to the forms of the established church. These rego's were also copied, and the copy sent to the GRO.



Following Greyghost's recipe gets the list of civil parishes in Sculcoates RD - townships would be a better name. I don't think they had any function. The header info is:

SCULCOATES REGISTRATION DISTRICT
Registration County : Yorkshire East Riding.
Created : 1.7.1837.
Abolished : 1.4.1937 (to become part of Hull and Holderness registration districts).
Sub-districts : Cottingham, Drypool, East Sculcoates, Ferriby, Hedon, Hessle, Newland, Southcoates, Sutton, West Sculcoates.
GRO volumes : XXII (1837-51), 9d (1852-1937).
Registers currently held at : Hull and East Riding of Yorkshire.

The subdistricts are all those that ever were in Sculcoates RD (incl Drypool).


Incidentally, clicking on the page # of a FreeBMD hit only gets those names with the same page # in the index.

SP practice

Here's the info from the copyrights slip in the margin of 2 SP images:

1888 ANDERSON, ANNIE [Statutory Births 247/00 0030]
and her geandad
1908 ANDERSON, ALEXANDER [Statutory Deaths 247/00 0035]

This identifies the parish code (247, i.e., Turiff in Aberdeenshire) and the entry # (30,35 respectively).


The parish code is also used on censuses:

1901
Text Registration Number: 247
Registration district: Turriff
Civil Parish: Turriff
County: Aberdeenshire
Address: Knowhead Of Muiresk
Household schedule number: 76
Name: Age: Relationship: Gender: Where born: Occupation:
Jane Anderson 43 Head Female Inverkeithney, Banffshire Crofter
Annie Anderson 13 Daur Female Turriff, Aberdeenshire Scholar
John Anderson 10 Son Male Turriff, Aberdeenshire Scholar
Jemima Anderson 8 Daur Female Turriff, Aberdeenshire Scholar
Eleanor Anderson 4 Daur Female Turriff, Aberdeenshire
Alexander Anderson 76 Father-in-law Male Rathen, Aberdeenshire Retired Crofter

Source Citation Parish: Turriff; ED: 8; Page: 19; Line: 1-6; Roll: CSSCT1901_80

I've only got a trimmed image, but I think the copyrights slip would read:
31/03/1901 ANDERSON, ALEXANDER [Census 247/00 0008 0019]
i.e., showing the ED & page #.
It's only in big cities where one doesn't see /00.
E.g., Old Machar (incl most of Aberdeen) might show 168/01 or 168/02.

======================

Organisation of civil registration in Scotland
Responsibility is divided between the Registrar General and 32 local councils who employ a total of 900 registrars.

Registers
Registrars maintain current registers of births, stillbirths, deaths, marriages and civil partnerships. They also conduct all civil marriages and civil partnership registrations. All births, stillbirths, deaths, marriages (both civil and religious) and civil partnerships occurring in Scotland must be recorded in these registers. The original registers are preserved and held centrally by the Registrar General.

Corrections
The general rule is that once made a register entry remains unchanged. However the Registrar General maintains a register of corrections etc in which amendments to the other registers can be entered. Some changes are possible:

an error of fact in any register entry may be corrected
a birth entry where the parents subsequently marry may be cancelled and replaced
a marriage entry may be cancelled if the marriage was found or declared to be void.
There are some cases in which an entry is made in the register of corrections and a marginal note beside the original entry gives a reference to this. These include cases where:

a court has made an order of parentage
the subject of the entry has changed his or her name
further information about a death has become available.

Consultation of registers
Any member of the public, on payment of a fee, has a statutory right of access to the indexes to the registers and, on payment of a further fee, can buy an extract of an entry in the registers.
Members of the public paying for access to the indexes to the registers are generally also allowed, by an administrative decision of the Registrar General not enshrined in statute, to inspect the registers. See our Our Services and Products page for more information.

Excerpted from http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/regscot/about-registration-in-scotland.html

Thanks greyghost and all. I am going to spend some time finding/ruling out the other Charles Caseys and then purchase the Sculcoates. Will feed back in time.

All the Best,

Charlie

Have a good look around the free to use website, at present from 1837 Q3 when civil registration began in England and Wales to approx 1960. It's an ongoing project that will eventually go to about 1983.

http://www.freebmd.org.uk

The following will show in births

Births Dec 1887 (>99%)
Casey Charles Sculcoates 9d 176

The number 176 is posted in blue. Click on that and it gives all the others born that quarter in that RD. Click on Sculcoates also highlighted in blue and it will take you to a page entitled District Information where there is the offer to click on the word "here" again in blue, which will give you the District info. That page will then give you a list of parishes which were part of the Sculcoates RD - amongst them Drypool.

Some Counties have their own bmd sites where you will get mothers maiden name i.e. lancsbmd but they are comparatively few and far between. The Yorkshire one above shown by mgnv gives more info than the GRO index at freebmd, but not the mmn (on the record shown, I don't know if it does on others, maybe only from 1912 when it was shown on the GRO list)

Order certificates from GRO, they are the cheapest, some commercial sites charge much more
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

GRO - Certificate Ordering Service - Registration Services ...
General Register Office - order a birth, marriage or death certificate from only £ 9.25 direct from the Government's official website.

Otherwise you can try another free website which may give you baptisms, GRO birth indexes, marriages and deaths in UK and around the world. Another good site to get to grips with

https://familysearch.org

Thanks all, thanks Elizabeth and mgnv for latest inforation.

So if the record shows Sculoates and he was born in Drypool, would this be returned as Sculoates?

I intend to get the BC now to say yes 100%. Is there nowhere online to see parents names against a record?

I am used to Scotlands People, haven't had to seach English records really. It's frustrating to not see one or other parents name.

Thank you, I am overwhelmed with your assistance.

Best Regards,

Charlie

Using http://www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk/
Yorkshire Birth indexes for the years: 1887
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
CASEY Charles Drypool Hull DRY/43/192

Here are the 1881 piece #s for Sculcoates RD:
Sutton 4746-4747
Cottingham 4748
Ferriby 4749
Hessle 4750-4751
Hedon 4752
Drypool 4753-4756
East Sculcoates 4757-4758
West Sculcoates 4759-4764

Using Ancestry 1881 census, I looked up the keyword(s) rivet* in the Drypool subdistrict piece #s and got 61 = 29+24+7+1 hits.

hi Charles,
I think the sculcoates birth must be the right one, I have checked with the Yorkshire records and he was born in Drypool a small village ajoining Sculcoates. on the banks of the river hull where it joins the humber estuary,and had it's own river basin and swing bridge. ( now replaced with a steel one ) If you google Drypool then images there are some super photos old and new

Google Shipbuilding in Hull/Sculcoates - plenty to find

Charles, I would think the number 35 has something to do with the enumerators count for different birthplaces but I could be wrong.

I think Sculcoates is in the Hull area and so would be quite heavily into the shipping industry.

Thanks all who have responded so far. All the census I have, 1891 - 1911 have his birth as England. The 1911, has the number 35 written beside England. I don't know what this means.

DC would mean he was born 1888 or 1889.

Yes the family were involved in ship building. Did this happen in Sculoates? Thanks George

Thanks Greyghost and Shirley for probably narrowing it down

Have you checked the 1911 census for a more specific place of birth please?

Hello Charles and welcome to the Community boards.




(I'll let Charles know how to find his replies) :-)

Can only suggest you check the birth date on his death cert .depending on when this was it may show , or take a chance and get the sculcoates birth certificate

Sculcoates is part of Hull I that helps in any way ??? (ref. Ships Rivitter)

A quick look before bed and i think I can account for (hedging bets but not proved) all 10 of the 1885-1888 births except the Sculcoates one posted by Shirley as either found 1891/1901 census or subsequent deaths

Births Dec 1887
Casey Charles Sculcoates 9d 176