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Mark
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26 Jan 2015 16:25 |
JoonieCloonie
I will look at the websites you have listed for me tomorrow and make contact with anyone. Many thanks ....
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JoonieCloonie
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26 Jan 2015 16:15 |
you're welcome, Mark!
Samuel Lilley is indeed listed in the baptisms I linked to earlier along with 'Kilchener'
http://tinyurl.com/kgb4l2s
so now the name is KiTchener as suspected
of course she may simply have died in infancy or otherwise without marrying ... although no death is noted for her as it is for some of the others on the list ... but, as I verified, there is no marriage record for any name resembling that
(Martha Lilley married Robert Boulton 1808 Broughton, probably the daughter of Joseph and Mary born 1886, for example)
why not find a way to verify that entry in the actual Northamptonshire parish records, or get hold of the transcribed index?
http://www.familyhistorynorthants.co.uk/baptismindex1650-1699.html
or see whether anyone at the Northants family history society could help check the baptism and look for a burial
http://www.familyhistorynorthants.co.uk/
for instance the person with the LILLEY surname interest listed
http://www.familyhistorynorthants.co.uk/northants%20surname%20list.html
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Mark
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26 Jan 2015 15:54 |
This line refers to my great grandmother Mary Lilley Shuttleworth who's mother is Elizabeth Lilley ..
Kitchener Lilley 1787 is the sister of Samuel Lilley 1774 who had a son George 1806. George son Samuel 1833 who married Elizabeth Leach and had a daughter in 1857 Elizabeth whos daughter Mary Lilley is my great grandmother.
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Chris Ho :)
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25 Jan 2015 08:47 |
Northamptonshire Marriages Transcription (Find My Past) First name(s) JOSEPH Last name LILLIE Marriage year 1769 Marriage day 19 Marriage month Oct Marriage place LODDINGTON Parish Cransley Spouse's first name(s) MARY Spouse's last name THARPE Spouse's parish Loddington Event Type Marriage By Banns or licence Banns
(above the Joseph, Death 1830 perhaps)
Chris :)
(if the Mark poster I am thinking of, he usually has limited time here, normally saying he is 'in a library, and his time his up')...
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SylviaInCanada
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25 Jan 2015 00:42 |
why does Mark not return to his thread??????????????????
I would like to know how he got back to Kilchener Lilley
I would also like to know the relationship between him and Kilchener Lilley, and the Lilley family
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JoonieCloonie
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24 Jan 2015 22:53 |
that death would make her born about 1744/45
a little early for an 1800 child ... but the last child in the batch before that one (who was possibly a child of son Joseph 1779) was 1788 which is not unreasonable
if that Joseph born c1740 died 1830 is the same Joseph ... I wonder whether the marriage I found wasn't a first marriage:
The only Joseph Lilley marriage pre 1787 is Martha Agar 1762 Warmington
there is a baptism of an Ann to a Joseph and Mary couple in Warmington in 1813 in Warmington
in 1841 the son (my surmise) Joseph Lilley is in Stanion, transcribed by Ancestry as Lahey, with younger wife Ann, with (my surmise) married daughter Martha Hector (transcribed by Ancestry as Hictar)
in 1851 he is in Stanion, having lost 10 years off his age, and shows as born in Broughton, living with daughter Ann 30 who was baptised in Warmington in 1813 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJFD-7T5 although recorded in 1851 as born in Stanion c1821 (perhaps a later Ann)
so it looks like the Broughton family is not fictitious, and that is one of the children at least, Joseph baptised 1779 in Broughton
and for all we know, Mark knows all about the rest of these Lilleys, and has just chosen not to bother telling us anything
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Chris Ho :)
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24 Jan 2015 21:56 |
Burial County Northamptonshire Place Broughton Church Saint Andrews RegisterNumber BurialDate 24 Dec 1830 Forename Joseph Surname LILLEY Age 90 Abode Broughton Northamptonshire
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl
(from above free to use link)
01 January 1831 - Northampton Mercury - Northampton, Northamptonshire
Death On Wednesday the 22d ult. at Broughton, near Kettering, Mr. Joseph Lilley, in the 91st year his age. The deceased retained his faculties till within few days of his death. His wife, to whom he had been married 63 years, still survives him, and is in her 87th year.
(possibly below)
Burial County Northamptonshire Place Broughton Church Saint Andrews RegisterNumber BurialDate 24 Jun 1831 Forename Mary Surname LILLEY Age 86y Abode Broughton Northamptonshire
Chris :)
(in case above relate anywhere!)
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SylviaInCanada
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24 Jan 2015 21:20 |
Joonie .....................
thanks for that information on
St. Sepulchre, London, England (majority) or London, Or Northampton St Sepulchre, Northampton, England
none of them are Northants marriages.
Problem is ...........
.......... my head is already full of useless information, so I may well forget, and you might to remind me again :-)
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JoonieCloonie
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24 Jan 2015 20:04 |
if the marriage is true, and Mary Buchanan was from Lancashire, they may have married in her home parish before settling in Northants
this is the link where the baptisms mentioned in the curiousfox message above and to which I referred earlier can be seen
http://tinyurl.com/kgb4l2s
same as in the Curiousfox message + 'Kilchener'
it is certainly a long span ... from John in 1770 to the last Martha (of 3) in 1800 ... the outside we might expect if Mary was born in 1753
wouldn't it be nice if Mark came back and talked to the nice people trying to help him and told us what he actually knows and what his interst in 'Kilchener' is and what he would like to find out?
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Chris Ho :)
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24 Jan 2015 17:06 |
http://www.curiousfox.com/vill100/Northamptonshire16313_1.html
am looking for any info re Joseph Lilley b 10.04.1751 Broughton, Northampton died 01.10.1811. He married Mary Buchanan who died 18.07.1804. Joseph's parents were Samuel and Ann/Anne ?
http://www.curiousfox.com/vill100/Northamptonshire70069_1.html
looking for any info re Lilley's from Northamptonshire. Samuel Lilley and Ann ? - 3 children, Joseph b 10.04.1751 married Mary Buchanan, Mary b 29.03.1753 and Elizabeth b 27.12.1756 all born in Broughton. Joseph and Mary had 6 children - John, Martha, Samuel, Martha, Joseph and Nathaniel b 1781 who married Eunice Cheater b 1783 Barton.
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/e/r/Bev-Berry/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0346.html
Mary Buchanan was born in Lancashire, and died 18 Jul 1804. She married Joseph Lilley, son of Samuel Lilley and Ann.
(above from google search, no advance with Marriage!)
Chris :)
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JoonieCloonie
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24 Jan 2015 16:57 |
Sylvia - I have run into that bizarre batch of records from
'London, Or Northampton St Sepulchre, Northampton, England'
before.
They are in fact all London: St Sepulchre's, Holborn. What weirdness in the LDS process produced that, we don't know.
The FS batch is M00061-7. If you use that as the search term at FS with nothing else, there are nearly 12 thousand records, all of which say either
St. Sepulchre, London, England (majority) or London, Or Northampton St Sepulchre, Northampton, England
none of them are Northants marriages.
in the case of this thread I checked the Northants marriages CD and that marriage isn't there, and in another case I know of someone had seen the actual parish record in London so it wasn't in Northants
So file that arcane bit of strangeness away in case it happens again ... it's been some time since I checked that out at FS but it stuck in my head so now it can stick in yours ! :-)
someday our heads will get full ...
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SylviaInCanada
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24 Jan 2015 06:43 |
There are in fact 76 Public Family Trees and 12 Private Trees that have Kilchiner Lilley in them ........................ all of them either unsourced or a handful with 1 source
about as reliable as familysearch trees methinks!!
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SylviaInCanada
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24 Jan 2015 06:38 |
how about this marriage, from ancestry ....... not to a Mary however :-)
England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973
Name: Joseph Lilley Gender: Male Marriage Date: 10 Aug 1782 Marriage Place: London, Or Northampton St Sepulchre, Northampton, England Spouse: Hannah Mclaughlin FHL Film Number: 375005
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JoonieCloonie
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24 Jan 2015 00:48 |
ah, that's what I figured ... I've wondered whether the submitted IGI records all show up in trees there or have just been lost, because some of them were genuinely accurate
... huh, it still won't produce it for me, but it's a temperamental thing
no wait, yes there it is, gotcha
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:1:M38N-GJV
batch number: 7906532 (submitted) IGI batch type code: 2 IGI sheet number: 72 IGI serial number: 00190
it claims 'parish printout' as source and shows her as female ... it that's true, it's a ridiculous mistranscription, but we need somebody with the Northants baptisms CD
so maybe Mark just ran across it and is asking on spec ... maybe we will never know ... but wouldn't it have been nice to have an actual reference and the details to start with, like you found ArgyllGran and I've expanded on ... and not just a vague query with no source like we got ... Mark being quite an old hand at this after all
searching genealogies for Lilley births in Broughton Northamptonshire 1770 to 1805 with parents Joseph and Lilley produces 13 results ... some duplicates ... one of the records for Martha Lilley 1771 specifies mother Mary Buchanan
so 'Kilchiner' is very possible a real person, just not likely with that name
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ArgyllGran
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23 Jan 2015 23:46 |
The "record" I posted above is on the FS website, but from the Genealogies tab, not Records . Even there, it doesn't come up if you enter Kilchiner as a search term.
You have to search just for surname Lilley , born Northamptonshire 1787.
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JoonieCloonie
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23 Jan 2015 19:19 |
There is no marriage of a Joseph Lilley to a Mary Buchanan in Northamptonshire parish marriage records.
I do not have the parish baptism records.
The only Joseph Lilley marriage pre 1787 is Martha Agar 1762 Warmington
there is no marriage among grooms or brides with surname Lilley or variant where the first name resembles Kilchener at all
the surname Kitchen/Kitchener/Kitchener does appear in parish marriages but no Joseph
there are Kitchen/Kitchener brides but their given names are Amy, Elizabeth, Jane, Mary
there is one Buchanan marriage in Northants, Elizabeth to William Pell 1805
of course these people could have come from elsewhere
personally, I would ask the tree owners who give this info what their source is ... which for all but one of them will be other tree owners ...
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JoonieCloonie
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23 Jan 2015 18:50 |
what is your own connection to the person, Mark?
there is no such record on familysearch
perhaps it was in the old IGI as a submitted record and you are quoting what someone else said and have not found that record yourself, or if you did it was quite some time ago?
... all of the 'Kilchener's showing at familysearch are undoubtedly mistranscribed 'Kitchener's, e.g. Robert KiTchener Cleveland born 1900 (per the GRO)
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Jacqueline
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23 Jan 2015 16:34 |
How did you work back to this person?
You must have a reason for looking for the info
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Kucinta
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23 Jan 2015 16:20 |
There seem to be heaps of trees on Ancestry that say Kilchiner Lilley was born 16th Dec 1787 at Broughton Northants, to Joseph Lilley and his wife Mary nee Buchanan, but none of them seem to bother to provide a source to substantiate this.
Expect most of them have blithely copied from someone else's tree without checking for themselves... :-(
Not finding a record even for her baptism at the moment. Had wondered if Kilchiner were a particularly mangled transcription of Katherine, but not having any luck with that name either.
EDIT: Looks like ArgyllGran had better luck than me with the baptism. Trouble with IGI submissions is it's hard to tell how reliable, or not, they are...
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ArgyllGran
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23 Jan 2015 16:18 |
Kilchiner is the child's first name (or perhaps a mistranscription of a first name) - we don't know if this is a boy or a girl - at least not from the record from someone's tree on FS:
Kilchiner Lilley International Genealogical Index (IGI) birth: 16 December 1787 Broughton, Northampton, England father: Joseph Lilley mother: Mary
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