Find Ancestors

Thank you Helen.

This family are impossible. I never know if I am looking for Alders or Holders. How can they exist with no certificates or census records?

I will also keep looking.

EDIT - Maybe I should try an Electoral Roll search for Charford Road?

Haven't got any further -although the newspaper articles mentioned earlier state that Richard Alder was living in CHARFORD ROAD, Leytonstone in 1887- I thought the family might still be there in 1891 but I can't see them:

"Thomas East, 21, a butcher, of 8 Cranbourne-road, Leytonstone, and Richard Alder, 32, a labourer, of Charford Road, Leytonstone, were charged with having in their possession a cash box"

18 March 1887 - Chelmsford Chronicle

This must be really frustrating! I'm going out for the day but will have another look at this later- if we all keep chipping away we'll hopefully get some answers

More info.

If you go to the CWGC site and look for Henry Holder he appears as the son of Richard Henry and Esther HOLDER. If you then look at the headstone schedules the next of kin is Mrs R. A ALDER 45 Lansdowne Road, Canning Town, Essex E16

Ok, so I know that these people existed but I can't find them :-S

There is a baptism for William Joseph Alder but I can't see a birth, possible marriage, possible death or any census results (1881/91/1901/1911).

Henry Richard has an army record but no birth/baptism, marriage or census 1891/1901/1911).

Lizzie is in the 1901 census but again no birth, no possible marriage, no death and no 1891 or 1911 census results.

Alfred is also in the 1901 census as ALDER. His 1901 army record is HOLDER, as is his 1911 census and death certificate. He never married so there is no marriage certificate but I can't find a birth, baptism or a 1891 census.

Also no marriage certificate for Richard Henry and Esther. No death for Esther Alder/Holder and no clues to who George and Francis SMITH might be.

If anyone can find any of these certificates I would be very grateful

Please Note: There is an Alfred Holder b1883 West Ham. This is not my Alfred as his parents are Thomas and Leah Holder.

Oh my Helen, that's great. I am going to have to find the birth cert for that one.

I would love to find a birth for Alfred, Henry and Lizzie as well.

JayneB- that's a great find!

Just had another search using the Henry middle name for father...

I don't know if this baptism is connected (perhaps another brother??) but it may be worth looking into:

William Joseph Alder
Baptism Date: 28 Apr 1880
Baptism Place: Holy Trinity, Harrow-Green, Essex, England
Father: Richard Henry Alder
Mother: Esther Alder

Residence: Leytonstone, Essex, England

FHL Film Number: 1564142
Reference ID: item 3 p 55

It seems that Alfred Holder/Alder may have had a brother.

There is an army record for a Henry Richard Holder who signed up in April 1901 aged 18 years and 5 months, address 11 Tenby Road, West Ham.

He died in France on 6th November 1918 and the records show his parents are Richard Henry and Esther Holder.

Also 2 Essex Newspaper stories for Richard Alder.

1872 6 weeks hard labour for stealing a trowel

1887 Remanded for having a cash box in his possession.

Could there be prison records?

I don't think it will help much but I just found a baptism for RICHARD ALDER.

Born 17th September 1856
Baptised 18th March 1865 at St John The Baptist, Leytonstone.
Father William, Mother Eliza

Looking for birth records for:

Alfred Alder b.1884
Lizzie Alder b 1887

Marriage record for Richard ALDER and Esther ??? (Possibly SMITH)

If the Richard/Esther marriage is a second marriage who is the mother of Alfred and Lizzie?

I would also love to find the family in the 1891 and 1911 census returns.

Richard ALDER died in 1902. Alfred HOLDER dies in 1932.

Any help gratefully received


:-D

**** :-)

Thanks MC, the work you did in the other thread was really helpful but sadly I have not made any headway with the Holder/Alder saga or any other part of the thread. It is almost as if the family do not want to be found

Maybe someone will see something I have missed :-)

I've just re-read the original thread - remember it well, I enjoyed that one with all of it's twists and turns.

Sadly, I don't think there's much I can add but will do some more poking around.

I have the certificate referenced above and it is for Alfred Holder, father Thomas, mother Leah. Not my Alfred.

Thank you for the replies.

The Alfred Holder in the 1901 census is not the Alfred I am looking for. This Alfred is still living with his parents in 1911.

My Alfred is living at 11 Tenby Road in 1901 named Alfred ALDER.

The Alfred Holder in the 1911 is the correct Alfred Holder, although he never married elizabeth (AKA MArtha).

1911 for reference


Alfred Holder
Age in 1911:30
Estimated birth year:abt 1881 <<<<<<

Relation to Head:Head

Birth Place:Stratford, Essex
Civil Parish:West Ham
County/Island:Essex

Street address:
55 Marcus St, 27 Eve Road, Stratford, West Ham, Essex E

Marital Status:Married
Occupation:Vegetable Market Porter


Alfred Holder 30
Elizabeth Holder 30
Rose Holder 1

Is this not him ?


Births Dec 1883
HOLDER Alfred - W. Ham 4a 55

Are you suggesting that Alfred Alder and Alfred Holder are the same person please?

1901

Name: Alfred Holder
Age: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1884
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Father: Thomas Holder
Mother: Leah Holder
Birth Place: West Ham, Essex, England
Civil Parish: West Ham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Gabriel
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street address: 22 Luton Road

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: Plaistow
ED, institution, or vessel: 48
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1575
Folio: 87
Page Number: 5
Household schedule number: 19
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Holder 51
Leah Holder 47
Thomas Holder 20
Alfred Holder 17
Ellen Holder 12
Charles Holder 10
Fredrick Holder 4

I am looking for information on Alfred Holder born c1884. Here is the info I already have plus a link to the thread regarding his "wife" (although they never married).

The only clues I have to Alfreds existence is his death certificate, the 1901 and 1911 census and an army record.

The 1900 Electoral roll shows a Richard ALDER living at 11 Tenby Road


In 1901 The census for 11 Tenby Road shows:

ALDER, Richard Head Married M 45 1856 General Laborer East Farley, Kent
ALDER, Esther Wife Married F 54 1847 Hackney, London
ALDER, Alfred Son Single M 17 1884 General Grocer Porter Leytonstone, Essex
ALDER, Lizzie Daughter Single F 14 1887 West Ham, Essex
SMITH, George Step Son Single M 30 1871 Invalid 2nd Essex Regiment Kingsland, London
SMITH, Francis Step Son Single M 27 1874 General Labourer West Hartlepool, Durham


The Electoral register for 1901 shows Richard HOLDER at 11 Tenby Road


In August 1901 Alfred HOLDER age 17 years and 5 month of 11 Tenby Road signed up to the army. He left the army in 1906.


In 1908 my great grandfather Frank Holder was born at 127 Meath Road, Plaistow. Mother Martha Holder (formerly Naptin, formerly Goouch), father Alfred Holder.


In 1911 Alfred Holder is living at Eve Street in Plaistow with his “wife” and daughter Rose Holder. Frank Holder (my great grandfather) is now in the West Ham Union Infirmary as Frank PITT.


Alfred Holder died in November 1932.


Despite many hours of searching I have not found Alfreds birth. There is an Alfred Holder born West Ham 1884 but he married and I have traced his family. He is not my Alfred.

I have traced Richard ALDER back through the census records and know that he was born ALDER, not HOLDER. He died in the Leytonstone Workhouse in 1902, name Richard Alder, address 11 Tenby Road. The 1901 cesus shows that he has step sons living with him so Esther may be his second wife?


Any ideas on the change of name, births or anything else would be great.

This is a previous thread which I ran on Martha/Elizabeth Goouch which tells of the confusing family line. It is quite long but may hold clues which I have missed?

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1318088?page=5