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JayneB
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26 Jul 2014 23:03 |
I am looking for information on Alfred Holder born c1884. Here is the info I already have plus a link to the thread regarding his "wife" (although they never married).
The only clues I have to Alfreds existence is his death certificate, the 1901 and 1911 census and an army record.
The 1900 Electoral roll shows a Richard ALDER living at 11 Tenby Road
In 1901 The census for 11 Tenby Road shows:
ALDER, Richard Head Married M 45 1856 General Laborer East Farley, Kent ALDER, Esther Wife Married F 54 1847 Hackney, London ALDER, Alfred Son Single M 17 1884 General Grocer Porter Leytonstone, Essex ALDER, Lizzie Daughter Single F 14 1887 West Ham, Essex SMITH, George Step Son Single M 30 1871 Invalid 2nd Essex Regiment Kingsland, London SMITH, Francis Step Son Single M 27 1874 General Labourer West Hartlepool, Durham
The Electoral register for 1901 shows Richard HOLDER at 11 Tenby Road
In August 1901 Alfred HOLDER age 17 years and 5 month of 11 Tenby Road signed up to the army. He left the army in 1906.
In 1908 my great grandfather Frank Holder was born at 127 Meath Road, Plaistow. Mother Martha Holder (formerly Naptin, formerly Goouch), father Alfred Holder.
In 1911 Alfred Holder is living at Eve Street in Plaistow with his “wife” and daughter Rose Holder. Frank Holder (my great grandfather) is now in the West Ham Union Infirmary as Frank PITT.
Alfred Holder died in November 1932.
Despite many hours of searching I have not found Alfreds birth. There is an Alfred Holder born West Ham 1884 but he married and I have traced his family. He is not my Alfred.
I have traced Richard ALDER back through the census records and know that he was born ALDER, not HOLDER. He died in the Leytonstone Workhouse in 1902, name Richard Alder, address 11 Tenby Road. The 1901 cesus shows that he has step sons living with him so Esther may be his second wife?
Any ideas on the change of name, births or anything else would be great.
This is a previous thread which I ran on Martha/Elizabeth Goouch which tells of the confusing family line. It is quite long but may hold clues which I have missed?
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1318088?page=5
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rootgatherer
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27 Jul 2014 00:09 |
Are you suggesting that Alfred Alder and Alfred Holder are the same person please?
1901
Name: Alfred Holder Age: 17 Estimated birth year: abt 1884 Relation to Head: Son Gender: Male Father: Thomas Holder Mother: Leah Holder Birth Place: West Ham, Essex, England Civil Parish: West Ham Ecclesiastical parish: St Gabriel County/Island: Essex Country: England Street address: 22 Luton Road
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image Registration district: West Ham Sub-registration district: Plaistow ED, institution, or vessel: 48 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 1575 Folio: 87 Page Number: 5 Household schedule number: 19 Household Members: Name Age Thomas Holder 51 Leah Holder 47 Thomas Holder 20 Alfred Holder 17 Ellen Holder 12 Charles Holder 10 Fredrick Holder 4
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Mike *
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27 Jul 2014 00:16 |
Is this not him ?
Births Dec 1883 HOLDER Alfred - W. Ham 4a 55
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Mike *
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27 Jul 2014 00:18 |
1911 for reference
Alfred Holder Age in 1911:30 Estimated birth year:abt 1881 <<<<<<
Relation to Head:Head
Birth Place:Stratford, Essex Civil Parish:West Ham County/Island:Essex
Street address: 55 Marcus St, 27 Eve Road, Stratford, West Ham, Essex E
Marital Status:Married Occupation:Vegetable Market Porter
Alfred Holder 30 Elizabeth Holder 30 Rose Holder 1
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JayneB
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27 Jul 2014 00:27 |
Thank you for the replies.
The Alfred Holder in the 1901 census is not the Alfred I am looking for. This Alfred is still living with his parents in 1911.
My Alfred is living at 11 Tenby Road in 1901 named Alfred ALDER.
The Alfred Holder in the 1911 is the correct Alfred Holder, although he never married elizabeth (AKA MArtha).
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JayneB
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27 Jul 2014 00:28 |
I have the certificate referenced above and it is for Alfred Holder, father Thomas, mother Leah. Not my Alfred.
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MarieCeleste
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27 Jul 2014 09:45 |
I've just re-read the original thread - remember it well, I enjoyed that one with all of it's twists and turns.
Sadly, I don't think there's much I can add but will do some more poking around.
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JayneB
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27 Jul 2014 21:51 |
Thanks MC, the work you did in the other thread was really helpful but sadly I have not made any headway with the Holder/Alder saga or any other part of the thread. It is almost as if the family do not want to be found
Maybe someone will see something I have missed :-)
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JayneB
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28 Jul 2014 22:00 |
**** :-)
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JayneB
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29 Jul 2014 20:06 |
Looking for birth records for:
Alfred Alder b.1884 Lizzie Alder b 1887
Marriage record for Richard ALDER and Esther ??? (Possibly SMITH)
If the Richard/Esther marriage is a second marriage who is the mother of Alfred and Lizzie?
I would also love to find the family in the 1891 and 1911 census returns.
Richard ALDER died in 1902. Alfred HOLDER dies in 1932.
Any help gratefully received
:-D
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JayneB
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2 Aug 2014 00:29 |
I don't think it will help much but I just found a baptism for RICHARD ALDER.
Born 17th September 1856 Baptised 18th March 1865 at St John The Baptist, Leytonstone. Father William, Mother Eliza
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JayneB
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2 Aug 2014 00:42 |
Also 2 Essex Newspaper stories for Richard Alder.
1872 6 weeks hard labour for stealing a trowel
1887 Remanded for having a cash box in his possession.
Could there be prison records?
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JayneB
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2 Aug 2014 15:06 |
It seems that Alfred Holder/Alder may have had a brother.
There is an army record for a Henry Richard Holder who signed up in April 1901 aged 18 years and 5 months, address 11 Tenby Road, West Ham.
He died in France on 6th November 1918 and the records show his parents are Richard Henry and Esther Holder.
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Gritty
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2 Aug 2014 17:11 |
JayneB- that's a great find!
Just had another search using the Henry middle name for father...
I don't know if this baptism is connected (perhaps another brother??) but it may be worth looking into:
William Joseph Alder Baptism Date: 28 Apr 1880 Baptism Place: Holy Trinity, Harrow-Green, Essex, England Father: Richard Henry Alder Mother: Esther Alder
Residence: Leytonstone, Essex, England
FHL Film Number: 1564142 Reference ID: item 3 p 55
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JayneB
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2 Aug 2014 20:14 |
Oh my Helen, that's great. I am going to have to find the birth cert for that one.
I would love to find a birth for Alfred, Henry and Lizzie as well.
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JayneB
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2 Aug 2014 22:05 |
Ok, so I know that these people existed but I can't find them :-S
There is a baptism for William Joseph Alder but I can't see a birth, possible marriage, possible death or any census results (1881/91/1901/1911).
Henry Richard has an army record but no birth/baptism, marriage or census 1891/1901/1911).
Lizzie is in the 1901 census but again no birth, no possible marriage, no death and no 1891 or 1911 census results.
Alfred is also in the 1901 census as ALDER. His 1901 army record is HOLDER, as is his 1911 census and death certificate. He never married so there is no marriage certificate but I can't find a birth, baptism or a 1891 census.
Also no marriage certificate for Richard Henry and Esther. No death for Esther Alder/Holder and no clues to who George and Francis SMITH might be.
If anyone can find any of these certificates I would be very grateful
Please Note: There is an Alfred Holder b1883 West Ham. This is not my Alfred as his parents are Thomas and Leah Holder.
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JayneB
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2 Aug 2014 22:53 |
More info.
If you go to the CWGC site and look for Henry Holder he appears as the son of Richard Henry and Esther HOLDER. If you then look at the headstone schedules the next of kin is Mrs R. A ALDER 45 Lansdowne Road, Canning Town, Essex E16
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Gritty
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3 Aug 2014 07:18 |
This must be really frustrating! I'm going out for the day but will have another look at this later- if we all keep chipping away we'll hopefully get some answers
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Gritty
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3 Aug 2014 19:59 |
Haven't got any further -although the newspaper articles mentioned earlier state that Richard Alder was living in CHARFORD ROAD, Leytonstone in 1887- I thought the family might still be there in 1891 but I can't see them:
"Thomas East, 21, a butcher, of 8 Cranbourne-road, Leytonstone, and Richard Alder, 32, a labourer, of Charford Road, Leytonstone, were charged with having in their possession a cash box"
18 March 1887 - Chelmsford Chronicle
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JayneB
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3 Aug 2014 20:20 |
Thank you Helen.
This family are impossible. I never know if I am looking for Alders or Holders. How can they exist with no certificates or census records?
I will also keep looking.
EDIT - Maybe I should try an Electoral Roll search for Charford Road?
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