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more than likely -- make a bit more info to look for him

we shall plod on hope we find out a bit more

Mavis

I've just had the birth cert of Jesse James - William Henry is listed as being a silk weaver and underneath it says pensioner, so that may link in with pensioner from the army do you think?

Addie

This William Henry James 1819 may be a bit of a man who likes to improve his status !!!

he was not living in Church Street in 1871 -- I have been trying to find his army record -- bit of a job , lots of W James .

we think its him 1871 in Sheffield then he seems to vanish .

Mavis

M.B. ............. this abbreviation is USUALLY an abbreviation for Bachelor of (or in) Medicine

and will then be followed USUALLY by Ch.B. ....... the abbreviation for Bachelor of Surgery

Both degrees obtained from recognised medical training.



L.M.V. ........ I can't find it, never heard of it.

Wondering if it is something like Licensed Medical Vxxxxxx

and all I can think of for V is Veterinarian!

In the 1911 census Emma Wagstaff is 70,lace mender and she died 1915.

Hi Mavis its nice to see his name although we don't know its my William Henry I've been looking in the Derby press but not found anything yet. I think MB might be Medical Bontanistbut don't know what the others might be.

Addie

Emma remarried in 1895 to John Wagstaff, he was her lodger in 1891. By 1901 she was a widow again! On the 1911 she signed with an X and 'her mark' is written next to it so I guess she couldn't write.

Name: JAMES, EmmaRegistration district: [?] Chesterfield County: DerbyshireYear of registration: 1895Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun Spouse's last name Not available before 1912Volume no: [?] 7B Page no: [?] 1134
MarriageFinder™: [?]

Emma James married one of the following people Record
SYKES, George
VIEW
WAGSTAFF, John <<<<<<
VIEW

TOUNDROW, Mary
VIEW
TOWNDROW, Mary

1891


Household transcription
1891 census

Person: JAMES, Emma Address: Little Moor, Ashover, Milltown
Cost


Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation
Disability Where born Image
JAMES, Emma Head Widow F 50 1841 Char Woman
Heage, Derbyshire VIEW
WAGSTAFF, John Lodger Widower M 55 1836 Farm Labourer
Aldwark, Derbyshire VIEW Piece: 2757 Folio: 33 Page: 2 Registration District: Chesterfield Civil Parish: Ashover Municipal Borough: Address: Little Moor, Ashover, Milltown County: Derbyshire

Newspaper report Birmingham Daily Post 11th Aug 1864

Darlaston

A " Medical Botanist " in Trouble -- on tuesday, at Wednesbury Police Court, William Henry James, a man described as a Medical botanist, and who appeared with 4 or 5 medals on his breast, was charged on the complaint of Mr Joseph Horton, assistant surveyor, with having obstructed the highway in Church Street, by leaving a vehicle thereon from half-past six o'clock until half-past nine o'clock on the morning of the 28th ult. Mr Horton proved the offence, and the defendant, who said he held testimonials from Miss Nightingale, General Bracebridge, and other officers under whom he had served as a non commissioned officer in the army, denied that the vehicle was in the road so long as stated by Mr Horton, and insinuated that the vehicles of other persons were allowed to remain in the public streets for hours together without any notice being taken of the obstruction. He was ordered to pay costs
====================
A Letter reply

Birmingham Post 12 th Aug 1864

To The Editor of the Daily Post
---------------------------------
Sir, --- I beg most respectfully that you will be pleased to find a small space in your valuable paper for a few lines. I see in this mornings paper that there is a mistake where it states that a medical botanist is in trouble. I find you state that William Henry James said he had testimonials from General Bacebridge. It is not correct . I said from Squire Bracebridge,a Magistrate, now living at Atherstone Hall, who was at Scutari Hospital during the Crimean War.

WILLIAM HENRY JAMES M.B. & L.M.V. Church Street Darlaston

[ the remainder of the letter is omitted as being Liballous -- Ed ]

I know this was at the time Emma married --- from what we have on the 1871
they are the same person I believe but is it who Emma married ??

any one know what M B and L M V is [ or are they invented ] in those days.

Looks as if he was a private in the army in 1861 --- what ever still not found a death for him

Mavis

Bit more Colchester barracks 1861

Name: William James
Age: 42... Born In: 1819... Profession: Private Army... Birth Place: Birmingham, Warwickshire...
Address: Colchester Infantry Barracks ... Parish: Colchester Infantry Barracks...
Essex 1861 Census

same man 1871 in Sheffield

if your William Henry James then he may have lowered his age when he married
Emma -- not unheard of

Mavis

Thats interesting what a melting pot! it throws up a few more questions I've sent for Jesse birth cert.


Addie

A bit more to add to the melting pot 1871 Sheffield

This William H James born Nuneaton is a Medical Botanist also Sergeant out
Army Pensioner. --- age slightly out


Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where born Image
JAMES, William H Head M 52 1819 Warwickshire
JAMES, Caroline Wife F 24 1847 Warwickshire
STUBBS, Frank Visitor M 9 1862 Warwickshire
ASTLE, Ann Visitor F 24 1847 Derbyshire
ASTLE, Arthur Visitor M 15 1856 Derbyshire
BAKER, Isaac Boarder M 23 1848 Berkshire
SMITH, George Boarder M 43 1828 Berkshire Piece: 4689 Folio: 39 Page: 7 Registration District: Sheffield Civil Parish: Sheffield Municipal Borough: Sheffield Address: South Street (Royal Standard Inn), Sheffield County: Yorkshire refine search back to 1871 census search results1871 address search

note 2 people from Derbyshire in the household

don't think William and Caroline married ???


Mavis

A bit more on that 1891:

JAMES, W H Lodger Married M 63 1828 Herbalist Scotland

Piece: 3828 Folio: 33 Page: 2
Registration District: Sheffield
Civil Parish: Brightside Bierlow
Municipal Borough: Sheffield

Address: 55to59, Wilberforce Cafe, Wicker, Brightside Bierlow, Sheffield
County: Yorkshire (West Riding)

There are numerous other men there so it could be some sort of digs.

Why not try first the Birth cert for Jesse James -- might find William Henry James
occupation changed or maybe under a different name --- he could be a travelling salesman in herbal pills and potions

Just a thought -- sounds a bit posh Botanical Chemist

Mavis

I will have to assume that his age was wrong on the cert and start again and follow up on that idea that Mavis suggested.

Thank you

Addie

Addie ............

don't forget that people often did not tell the absolute truth on censuses, and on certificates.

Marriages broke down just as often back then as they do now ................ and the wives often called themselves "widows" when that happened, especially if the husband left the town and was not seen again.

So the fact that Emma is shown as "widow" on the 1891 census could be just that kind of face-saving.

It might be worth trying to follow-up that W.H. James found by Mavis .......... possibly find his death and get the certificate???


Many people also married again, without obtaining a death certificate or divorce from the other spouse .......... so bigamy enters the picture.


Macclesfield was a large centre of silk weaving in Cheshire

Congleton, Macclesfield, Bollington and Stockport were traditionally silk weaving towns. Silk was woven in Cheshire from the late 1600s. Silk mills were built in Macclesfield after about 1732.

The coach road from Derby to Manchester passed through, or near to each of these silk towns,

We've been to the Silk Museum in Macclesfield several times. It's fascinating!

I'm not sure that there was ever any silk industry in Lancashire ........... that was cotton county!

Hi everyone thanks for your replies.
The witnesses on the wedding cert are Thomas Hawkins (Emmas brother and Ellen Stoppard later his wife) she was cotton factory hand. I haven't got Jesse's birth cert, I hadn't thought of that but the idea of herbalist might tie in but that would make his age wrong on the marriage cert.
I think there was a silk mill in Derby for a short while, but haven't got very far with that either.
I have all the information and dates that are listed in the reply from AnnCardiff.
Also on the 1891 census Emma is listed as a widow.

Addie

Found this


Name: W H James
Age: 63... Born In: 1828... Relation: Lodger... Profession: Herbalist... Birth Place: Scotland...
Address: Wicker ...
Yorkshire 1891 Census

Mavis

Have you got a copy of Jesse birth cert to see if fathers occupation is the same
as on the marriage -- thats if there is one.

Silk I think was mainly produced in Cheshire / London might be Lancashire
as well ??

Nottinghamshire was Lace, not sure if silk was used in that.

Could you call a Botanical Chemist a Herbalist or perhaps a herbal pill traveller
If William Henry James was a Botanist he may have travelled collecting Plants

who are the witnesses on the marriage.

Mavis

what about the witnesses?

do they provide any help??

Hi patchem, the marriage cert just says father: Charles Henry James- silk manufacturer.
I can't find any link, don't know where he came from or where he died.

Just for ref:
1871 England Census
Emma James Age: 30 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Wife Gender: Female Where born: Heage, Derbyshire, England
Civil Parish: Heage County/Island: Derbyshire Country: England
Registration District: Belper Sub-registration District: Ripley
ED, institution, or vessel: 12 Household Schedule Number: 48 Piece: 3588 Folio: 25 Page Number: 10
Emma James 30 wife
Jesse James 4
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 3588; Folio: 25; Page: 10; GSU roll: 839774.

Does the marriage certificate say id his Father was still alive?