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Researching Palmer.

I am looking for Ernest Palmer b 1867 South Norwood and his wife.
Elizabeth Louisa Palmer, formerly Plested née Grimes b. 1850, Norwich and son
Charles Kenneth Alexander b 1890 S. Norwood.
They emigrated to Canada in 1902, not 1892 and 1904 as in the 1911 Canadian census.
Charles served in the CEF in Europe but was given compassionate discharge in 1919, I suspect because his father died. (I have his army records) Ernest served in the army in Canada but was invalided out with Pneumonia and arthritis. He was re-attested to undergo further treatment.
Charles married Marie Désirée Piret in the RC Church Huntsville 1920.
I am searching for the deaths of Ernest, Elizabeth and Marie, and any children the latter may have had.
Note: 1. they regularly lie about their age, 2. The names of Marie and Elizabeth are spelled incorrectly on their marriage cert.

Previous thread:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/living_relatives/thread/1319156

Thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten that I posted that. Still looking for their deaths. I believe there is a 1921 census available now?

I know I got the son's army records from a Canadian site, but I have forgotten which one. If I remember I could get those for the father which would probably . Ernest said he served with the British in South Africa, but I couldn't find him.

Could be Charles, seems to think he's Welsh.

1921 Census of Canada

Name: Charles K Palmer
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Age: 30
Birth Year: abt 1891
Birth Place: Wales
Relation to Head of House: Head
Spouse's Name: Marie Palmer
Father Birth Place: Wales
Mother Birth Place: England
Year of Immigration: 1901
Racial or Tribal Origin: English
Province or Territory: Ontario

District: Lincoln
District Number: 100
Sub-District: St Catharines (City)
Sub-District Number: 49
City, Town or Village: St Catherines
Street or Township: 38 Ottawa St
Municipality: St Catharines

Occupation: Dviller (Driller?)
Income: 1500

Household Members:
Name Age
Charles K Palmer 30
Marie Palmer 18 - Belgian - arrived 1920.

Here's the link to Charles WW1 records - if you click on the "View Record" on the top right of the image you can navigate to the other page of the record.

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.02-e.php?image_url=http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/562812a.gif&id_nbr=543484

I see he says he was born 1894?

These are only WW1 records so think Ernest may have been too old?

Ernest in 1921:

1921 Census of Canada about Earnest Palmer

Name: Earnest Palmer
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Age: 54
Birth Year: abt 1867
Birth Place: England
Relation to Head of House: Head
Spouse's Name: Louisa Palmer
Father Birth Place: Wales
Mother Birth Place: England
Year of Immigration: 1902
Racial or Tribal Origin: Welsh

Province or Territory: Ontario
District: Toronto East
District Number: 131
Sub-District: Ward 1
Sub-District Number: 2
City, Town or Village: Toronto East
Street or Township: 38 Strange St
Municipality: Ward One

Occupation: Income
Income: 100

Household Members:
Name Age
Earnest Palmer 54
Louisa Palmer 66
Henry Proctor 48 - Lodger, English, arrived 1908

I'm putting this here for elimination, at first glance it seemed to fit but the details don't tally:

Ontario, Canada, Deaths, 1869-1938 and Deaths Overseas, 1939-1947

Name: Louisa Elizabeth Palmer
Death Date: 30 Aug 1930
Death County or District: York
Death State: Ontario
Death Country: Canada
Age: 75
Gender: Female
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Birth Location: England

This lady was the daughter of William Kingdon & Eliza Vickery and the informant was daughter Mrs Maude Deighton.

David - if Charles was discharged in 1919 on compassionate grounds then it couldn't be the death of his father who appears to be alive on the 1921 census. Might it have been something to do with his first marriage? From your first thread:

"Charles married, Kitty Eileen Blay in Godalming during the war, but that marriage only seemed to last about 6 months. Charles returned to Canada in 1919 where he was described as a farmer."

ADDED: Have you followed up on what happened to Charles' first wife Kitty?

Ernest's military papers are on FindMyPast - he did serve in South Africa.

British Army Service Records 1760-1915 Transcription

First name(s): Ernest
Last name: PALMER
Calculated year of birth: 1869
Parish of birth: Craydon
Town of birth: Croydon
County of birth: Surrey
Age at attestation: 32 years
Attestation date: 10 April 1901
Attestation corps: Royal Army Medical Corps
Attestation soldier number: 15454
Discharge rank:
Discharge corps:
Discharge soldier number:
The National Archives reference: WO97

Confirms he married Elizabeth Louisa Plested in 1889. If you want a copy of the records then send me a private message with an email address and I'll forward them.

I see there was another thread about Charles:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1140234

David, it's always a good idea to use the "My Threads" link to see what you've previously posted and add to and existing thread about the same people so we don't keep going over old ground.

Speaking of old threads, I came across this

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=85399.0;wap

In it, it's stated about Charles:

" 21.3.19 he was SOS to CDD Buxton and returned to Canada 14.4.19 on Olympic."

Are you absolutely certain that the Charles Palmer who came back on that ship is your man? The reason I ask is that looking at this record there are some things don't tie up

Canadian Passenger Lists, 1865-1935
Name: Charles Palmer
Date of Arrival: 21 Apr 1919
Vessel: Olympic
Port of Arrival: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Port of Departure: Southampton, England
Roll: T-14795

If my calculation is right this ship would have left Southampton around the 14th.

The things that don't add up are:

This man's religion is given as Presbyterian yet yours got married in an RC church?

This man gives his next of kin as his sister - did your Charles have a sister?

If I've picked the wrong record up I do apologise and, if I have, which is the correct one?

(I know it's deaths and descendants you're looking for but we need to establish the facts of the people first to trace them).

Charles's attestation:
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/562812a.gif
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/562812b.gif

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-130-e.html
has a link that tells you how to get WW1 service records.
It also has a link that gets you to the war diaries of Chas's unit.

Ernest:
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/562865a.gif
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/562865b.gif
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/562866a.gif
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc013/562866b.gif

Go to http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/microform-digitization/006003-110.01-e.php
and follow the path below:
Title: Veterans Death Cards: First World War
Microform: olsen_b
Page 1082 of 1284
to get to:
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/006003/dc-fww/olsen_b/jpg/olsen_b_1082.jpg
[Ernest d 24/1/1939 in London, Ontario - I found no card for Chas]

Ernest's Boer War service was in the British army, so that bit of his record is available via FMP:
First Name:ERNEST
Last Name:PALMER
Age At Attestation Months:-
Age At Attestation Years:32
Record set:British Army Service Records 1760-1915
Attestation Day:10
Attestation Month:4
Year Of Birth:1869
Document Type:Attestation
Year:1901
Birth Country:ENGLAND
Birth County:SURREY
Attestation Corps:Royal Army Medical Corps
Birth Parish:CRAYDON
Attestation Soldier Number:15454
Birth Town:CROYDON
Discharge Corps:Royal Army Medical Corps
Discharge Soldier Number:-
Rank:-
Box:5641
Regiment:Royal Army Medical Corps
Box Record Number:97
Soldier Number:15454
Series:chelsea pensioners british army service records 1760-1913

[I've pm'ed the 4 images to David]


Fern Glen is in Parry Sound District, not far from Huntsville which is abt 90km N of Orillia on the road to North Bay.
In Ontario, a district is a sort of 2nd class county.

1911 Census of Canada
Home / 1911 / Ontario / Parry Sound / 24 McMurrich Township / page 14
24 149 Palmer Ernest M Head M Sep 1862 48
25 149 Palmer Elizabeth F Wife M Sep 1858 52
26 149 Palmer Charles M Son S Sep 1889 21
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1911/pdf/e002011603.pdf

Unlike the UK census, where a form was left at each residence, and the enumerator only asked questions if there was some bother with the form, in Canada, the questions were asked at the threshold, so a slight variation could easily lead to different answers.
So 'when did you immigrate' might get 1904 or whatever, but 'when did you come to Canada' might get 1892 if there were a prior non-immigating visit - I'm just speculating.


Right now, you can search 1921 & view images for free via:
http://search.ancestry.ca/search/db.aspx?dbid=8991


Maybe:
Ship: MAURITANIA
Shipping Line: Cunard Steamship Co. Ltd.
Departure Port and Date (yyyy/mm/dd): Liverpool, England - 1919-06-01
Port and Date of Arrival: Halifax, Nova Scotia - 1919-06-06
New York - [1919-06]
Reference: RG 76
Microfilm: T-14795
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e244/e006086368.jpg

MarieCeleste

Thanks for your replies. It is all a bit too much for me to digest in one go, so I will print it all out and answer in one go if that is OK? In the meantime here is thed family's religious history.
Elazabeth Grimes was baptised and accepted as a member of St Mary's Baptist church Norwich where she married Henry Alfred Plested (my ggf) on 25th December 1874. Henry died in 1878 about the time my grandfather was born. Elizabeth transferred her membership to Lowestoft Baptist church, but returned about 1880 as it seems her mother was ill. Elizabeth was on the Christmas church poor distribution list for a couple of years but left in 1866 and at sometime she joined the Salvation Army. (St Mary's membership lists and deacon's records.) On the 1911 Canadian census, Ernest and Elizabeth said they were Church of England.

On the same census page, Charles said he was Presbyterian, on his army attestation, C of E, and on his marriage, RC. He also said he was a bachelor which was not true.

Regarding his first wife, Kitty Eileen Blay, I first came across her in his army records when he was given permission to marry her by his commanding officer. They were married in the Parish Church of Godalming, in 1917, which seemed to be the garrison church and the service was conducted by the padre.

After the marriage, according to his army records, his assigned pay was paid to his wife instead of his mother, but after about 6 months has suspended the paid again to his mother.
I have not found any other trace of Eileen.

MarieCelest
Replies to your posts yesterday.

2 Jan 2014 08:01
I don’t believe half of what my family have said on Census returns and even certs. Many have given wrong dates of birth. One who married in Australia gave her age as 27 when she was 36 and one Australian descendant said she seemed to stay 27 for a long time. My grandfather’s birth cert seemed to give a fictitious mother’s name but his baptism cert gave the correct one. My other gps had their fathers’ first names reversed.
Charles’ father Ernest said his father was born in Wales. Charles and Marie are shown as RC, following on from my comments about the family’s religion. Another interesting thing I note from the 1921 census is that living in the same house were Aristide and Marie Peret. Aristide and Marie Piret were Marie Palmer’s parents. She also had a brother Aristide.

2 Jan 2014 08:06
Quote
“I see he says he was born 1894?” He lied.
Quote
“These are only WW1 records so think Ernest may have been too old?” Ernest was in WW1. He gave his dob as 2 Sept 1874, and on the 2nd attestation gave it as a year later 2 Sept 1875.

2 Jan 2014 11:33
I think you have picked the correct record. He was Presbyterian then married a Belgian girl who was Catholic. On the 1921 cencus both they and his parents are shown as RC
I don’t think he had a sister
Elisabeth would have been 71 in 1921. As her husband was 17 years her juniour, she gradually reduced her age and he increased his (Except when he joined the army, then he reduced it.)

Hello David, yes I've since found Ernest's enlistment and see what you mean.

I have some family members rather like that too, I can't trust anything they say on any document.

I've been trying to find the Palmers on Canadian voter lists without any success. Did any of the family in England have contact with them after 1921 to give any clues as to where they might have been?

I think this may be Elizabeth.


Name: Elizabeth Louise Palmer
Event Type: Death
Event Date: 02 Oct 1921
Event Place: York, Scarboro, Ontario, Canada
Gender: Female
Age: 64
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Birth Year (Estimated): 1857
Burial Date:
Burial Place:
Father's Name:
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Name:
Reference ID: p 339
GS Film number: 1863546
Digital Folder Number: 4171538
Image Number: 1219

Yes, that's her David - I'll send you the actual image by pm. It has father's name as Grimes. The informant was husband FRANCES Ernest Palmer (where did Frances come from?)

Thanks for the image. It was much appreciated.

Frances? Strange.

I just googled the 122nd bn CEF - it seems most men went into the Canadian Forestry Corps. Was this the case for Chas? If not, what unit did he wind up in (most of the Canadian depot bns were used as replacements of the regular front line bns).
If he was in the CFC, did he serve in France, or in the UK? - abt 40% logeed UK forests. The ones in France also had some companies mainly involved in constructing airfields.
FYI: https://archive.org/details/canadianforestry00birduoft

One of the more interesting products of the CFC was giant wooden letter A's.
These were placed, point down, in trenches - the legs of the A provided posts behind which one could place tin sheeting or wattle to maintain the trench walls. A plankway was placed on the cross-piece of the A, which allowed for drainage under the plankway.

Mgnv.
Charles served in UK and France. I don’t know where I put the file with the palmers in but I am not up to searching for it as I have a bad fall on New years eve.
I would like to get the service records for Ernest, but I have forgotten how to order them.