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John
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18 Nov 2013 20:18 |
Really just about to give up having sought information for 4 years. My aunt Beatrice French married a Charles Johnson in Watford, December 1918. They had five children and lived in Newcastle upon Tyne. It seems that the information on the marriage certificate does not tally with what a living relative has told me. According to the certificate he was born c1890 but the relative believes him to be older. Seemingly there was degree of ill-feeling towards him, and no-one can even say when or where he died, although they think he could have been born in Ireland.
Any help would be received with thanks.
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GlitterBaby
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18 Nov 2013 20:34 |
Do you have any idea of when Beatrice died and was Charles the informant
With such a common name and no middle name it will be like looking for a needle in a haystack
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GlitterBaby
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18 Nov 2013 20:37 |
Was her death in 1957 ?
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Porkie_Pie
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18 Nov 2013 20:42 |
Have you looked for him with family on the 1901/11 census using his fathers details off the marriage cert
Roy
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John
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18 Nov 2013 21:44 |
Glitterbaby: She died in 1987 not 57.
Porkie_Pie: He gives his fathers name as Charles Johnson which does not help. I have been able to trace his children and what happen to them, how they moved around Newcastle and area, even have a photo of him at one daughter's wedding, Seems as if he was a bit of a bad egg according to living relatives, but they do not know when he died and where.
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JoonieCloonie
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18 Nov 2013 22:13 |
What does the marriage certificate say his occupation was? and his father's? Probably the witnesses are from the bride's side? Any info like that that you have, but nobody else does, could help! :-)
Does his age in the photograph seem to tally with his stated age in 1918? (or was he just 'old' ...) Do you know about when it was taken, for an idea of when he was still 'in the picture' so to speak?
and as GlitterBaby says was he the informant on Beatrice's death certificate? if you know he was not around by 1987 then probably not. Beatrice was quite a good age when she died then, born in 1892, so 26ish when she married and 95 when she died. Almost certainly Charles would not have lived that long.
Sometimes a father with the same name on a marriage certificate did mean a made-up father ... could be the person didn't know their father's name, or the person was concealing their real identity and maybe even their real name ... maybe if they were already married, or had deserted from the military, are common reasons.
Knowing his occupation could really help find him in 1911 as he would already have been 20 by then at least and working.
Have you checked out the Charles Johnson born about 1878 who died in 1948 in Newcastle upon Tyne where Beatrice died? if your Charles's death certificate was signed by Beatrice that could help considerably.
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JoonieCloonie
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18 Nov 2013 22:24 |
There is certainly a Charles who fits the bill in Westgate, Newcastle upon Tyne reg dist, Northumberland in 1881
Charles Johnson 27 factory machineman - born Norway! Mary J. Johnson 31 John C. Johnson 5 Mary Johnson 4 Charles Johnson 3 born in Newcastle Thomas Johnson 1 George Hunt 26 wife's brother Joseph Hunt 16 " Johan Carlson 53 boarder, born Sweden
in 1891 the family is in Gateshead
birth reg December quarter 1877 in Newcastle upon Tyne probably
If that 1948 death certificate seems likely ... this is probably the person whose death that was.
oh rats, edit, in 1901 that Charles is Charles H whose birth was registered in June quarter 1878 in Newcastle ... back to the drawing board but this just means that the Charles born in 1877 is still at large.
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John
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18 Nov 2013 22:38 |
JoonieCloonie: You have been going along the lines that I have. Charles Johnson looks 'old' in the photo I have, but it was just after WWII and things were not that glossy then. My aunts grand daughter was the informant of her death, but from what I suspect, though cannot prove, is that they might well have been apart and he could have well died. I had come across the Norway connection and did wonder, but you may have unlocked the puzzle.
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JoonieCloonie
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18 Nov 2013 22:49 |
I think I was mistaken there because I think he was the Charles Henry. If we assume your Charles had no middle name ... and assumptions are never completely wise ... he is more likely the one born 1877. If and it is a big if he was born in Newcastle.
Can you give us the other information from the marriage certificate, especially his and his father's occupation please?
There is one in the censuses born in Ireland, but he was a solicitor's clerk in Northamptonshire so I think probably not the one. Of course your Charles could have come to England after the 1911 census, if he was from Ireland, maybe he stayed after the war ...
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John
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18 Nov 2013 23:14 |
His occupation was given as machinist, which seems to follow his father's occupation. No middle name is given. The Irish connection comes from a living relative. I am not sure just how reliable that is as she is a grand daughter and doesn't really seem to have known him. On the marriage certificate he says that he came from Newcastle and I wonder what he was doing down south to have met my aunt.
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JoonieCloonie
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18 Nov 2013 23:33 |
Well December 1918, I would think he had been demobbed !
That occupation does match the 1881 boy's father, but he does seem to have been the Charles Henry ... not that he could not have just dropped the middle name.
But when you say it seems to follow his father's occupation is that what you mean? No occupation is given on the certificate for the father? does it say deceased? Please, we are blind here unless you tell us everything on the certificate. :-)
The 1921 census is going to reveal many secrets, or wish it had !
I think if it were me and I really wanted to know I would get that 1948 death certificate just to find out whether it was him.
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ChristinaS
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19 Nov 2013 09:27 |
It could be a slow job, but have you tried looking through the WWI military records?
You may be able to match the soldier's signature, on the front page, with his signature on the marriage certificate.
If found, it could give you his age and place of birth.
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Mavis
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19 Nov 2013 15:23 |
1911 Census
Name: Isaac Johnson Age in 1911: 57 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854 Relation to Head: Head Gender: Male Birth Place: Newcastle, Durham, England Civil Parish: Jarrow County/Island: Durham Country: England Street Address: 20 Grange Rd West Jarrow On Tyne Marital Status: Married Occupation: Machinist Registration District: South Shields Registration District Number: 556 Sub-registration District: Jarrow ED, institution, or vessel: 20 Piece: 30368 Household Members: Name Age Isaac Johnson 57 Margaret Johnson 47 Charles Johnson 20 Machinist
adding more shortly Charles not their son
1901 Census
JOHNSON, Isaac Head Married M 46 1855 Engine Works Machine Minder Newcastle, Northumberland VIEW JOHNSON, Margaret Wife Married F 40 1861 Sunderland, Durham VIEW JOHNSON, Charles Son M 10 1891 Jarrow, Durham VIEW BROUGH, Charles Nephew Single M 21 1880 Insurance Agent Jarrow, Durham VIEW Piece: 4741 Folio: 15 Page: 21 Registration District: South Shields Civil Parish: Jarrow Municipal Borough: Address: 45, Charles Street, Jarrow County: Durham
Mavis
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Mavis
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19 Nov 2013 15:28 |
1891 Census
Name: Isaac Johnson Age: 36 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855 Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Margt Johnson Gender: Male Where born: Newcastle, Northumberland, England Civil Parish: Hedworth Monkton and Jarrow Ecclesiastical parish: St Pauls Town: Jarrow County/Island: Durham Country: England Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View Image Registration District: South Shields Sub-registration District: South Shields ED, institution, or vessel: 13 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 4165 Folio: 117 Page Number: 4 Household Members: Name Age Isaac Johnson 36 Margt Johnson 29 William Johnson 50 Mary Jane Potts 18 Chas Stevenson 2/12
he is Charles Stevenson 2 mths old --- he became Charles Johnson if Illigit then did'nt know father
Birth ??? Charles Cecil Stevenson Newcastle T - Mar Q - 1891 - 10b 54.
Mavis
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JoonieCloonie
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19 Nov 2013 16:04 |
Excellent :-D
He might have known his father was a 'Charles' and he was named for him, or he might have just made him up out of whole cloth. Funny that since he took his stepfather's surname he didn't name him when he married.
No marriage for Margaret and Isaac that I can see? but ... Margaret says married 32 years in 1911! which is about 1879. so ... it could be September quarter 1878 Sunderland, Isaac Johnson and Margaret Mitchell are two names in the list.
but then she would not have had a child by another name in 1891.
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JoonieCloonie
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19 Nov 2013 16:08 |
but they are indeed together in 1881
Name: Margaret Johnson Age: 20 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861 Relationship to Head: Wife Spouse: Isaac Johnson Gender: Female Where born: Sunderland, Durham, England Civil Parish: Hedworth Monkton and Jarrow
so Charles must have been someone else's child ...
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JoonieCloonie
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19 Nov 2013 16:11 |
Actually in 1891 Charles is
Name: Chas Stevenson Age: 2/12 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891 > Relation: Visitor Gender: Male Where born: Newcastle, Northumberland, England Civil Parish: Hedworth Monkton and Jarrow
He came to visit and he stayed :-)
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Mavis
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19 Nov 2013 16:17 |
Army records
Charles Johnson Teritorial force 689 1891 Durham Military 1913 - 22y 5 foot 4 inches
then
: Charles Johnson Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891 Age at Enlistment: 26 Residence: 20 Green Rd West, Garrow Document Year: 1917 Regimental Number: 94264 Regiment Name RFA
death ?????? JOHNSON, CharlesRegistration district: [?] Northumberland Central County: NorthumberlandYear of registration: 1953 Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar Age at death:62 y Volume no: 1B Page no: 284
Mavis
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rootgatherer
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19 Nov 2013 17:02 |
This man's occupation is "machinist"
Name: Charles Johnson Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891 Age at Enlistment: 22 Birth Parish: Chriss Church Birth County: Durham Document Year: 1913 Regimental Number: 689 Number of images: 12
He enlisted in 1913 and the address on his records is 20 Grange Road West. Jarrow on Tyne
His British Victory medal was sent to the above address on 27 October 1921.
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John
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19 Nov 2013 20:01 |
Many thanks to all of you who have replied, I am very grateful. I will continue to check through the information that you have given.
One or two points that I can answer. His father was not deceased at the time of his marriage. I know that he was still alive in 1946. At various times he called himself a machinist and other times a fitter. Judging by the photograph I have he was not tall, but difficult to gauge his height.
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