Find Ancestors

I am desperately in need of some help with three mammoth frustrating problems I have. I will list them individually over the next couple of days and would appreciate any help/thoughts you can come up with. All three relate to ongoing research over the last several months.

First. I have a Winifred May Brown b. 1911, the dau of George James Brown and Emily Edith Pullen. This couple were married 1913 - after the birth of all nine of their children. Both George James and Emily Edith were born Kensington area of London. I was unable to positively identify George James via the census returns to establish his father so I sent for the marriage certificate which I received yesterday. On it George James Brown is age 36 a bachelor, profession greengrocer living 65 Swinbrook Road. His father is names as James George Brown (which doesn't help much) and he is a plumber. Emily Edith is 34 a spinster living 65 Swinbrook Road and her father is William a house painter.

I got the 1911 census up to check on James George Brown and family and the only James George Brown b. London living London was living 30 Kensal Road with wife Caroline and is age 65 with wife 60. In 1911 the won George would be 34 which would make the father about 31 when he was born which sounds ok. The James George on the 1911 is also described as a plumber which made it sound most likely to be him. According to the census James was born Marylebone and Caroline Clerkenwell. However, According to the 1911 they had been married 41 years and had had 13 children, 4 living and 11 dead. With this in mind I went back to the census returns hoping to find James George and Caroline with some of the four living offspring. I did find one where a Mr. English (Caroline's father) was living with them. On the basis of this I looked for a marriage and found a marriage of a James Brown to Caroline English at St. Mary's Church, Fulham. However I have not been successful in finding the family together on other census returns. I am going round in circles and would appreciate some guidance/help in mentally sorting this out as I do not want to get it wrong. Many thanks. Apologies if I have not made this very clear but my head is buzzing.

Found these 1901 and 1891 but am unable to see originals at the moment will get back when I can to see if he's a plumber.


James Brown
Age:
54

Estimated Birth Year:
abt 1847

Relation:
Head
Spouse's Name:
Caroline Brown
Gender:
Male

Where born:
Chelsea, London, England


Civil Parish:
Fulham

Ecclesiastical parish:
St Oswald

Town:
London

County/Island:
London

Country:
England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:



View Image



Registration District:
Fulham

Sub-registration District:
North East Fulham

ED, institution, or vessel:
14

Neighbors:
View others on page

Household Schedule Number:
390

Piece:
61

Folio:
92

Page Number:
57

Household Members:


Name

Age

James Brown 54
Caroline Brown 53
James Brown 20
Amy Brown 18
William F Brown 16
Frederick Brown 12
Beatrice Brown 6





View
Original
Record

View original image
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James Brown

Age:
44

Estimated Birth Year:
abt 1847

Relation:
Head

Spouse's Name:
Caroline Brown

Gender:
Male

Where born:
Chelsea, London, England



Civil Parish:
Fulham

Ecclesiastical parish:
St Johns and St Oswalds

County/Island:
London

Country:
England




Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:



View Image




Registration District:
Fulham

Sub-registration District:
Fulham

ED, institution, or vessel:
35

Neighbors:
View others on page

Piece:
51

Folio:
22

Page Number:
39

Household Members:


Name

Age

James Brown 44
Caroline Brown 43
Beatrice Brown 17
Edith Brown 14
James Brown 4
Amy Brown 8
Willie Brown 5
Frederick Brown 2

You mean this marriage

Name: James Brown
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848 Age: 22
Spouse Name: Caroline English Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage Event Date: 25 Dec 1870
Parish: West Kensington St Mary Borough: Hammersmith and Fulham Father Name: James Brown
Spouse Father Name: Richard English
Register Type: Parish Register


This James is a bricklayer

For info...


..1911 England Census
about George James Brown Name: George James Brown
Age in 1911: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1876
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Civil Parish: Kensington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 65 Swinbrook Road, North Kensington
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 12
Estimated Marriage Year: 1899
Occupation: GREENGROCERS ASSISTANT
Registration District: Kensington
Registration District Number: 2
Sub-registration District: Kensington North
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Piece: 182
Household Members: Name Age
George James Brown 35
Emma Edith Brown 33
George Brown 11
Lillie Brown 10
Alfred Brown 8
Nellie Brown 7
Toramy Brown 4
Violet Brown 3
Rose Brown 1

FMP version...


1911 census
Person: BROWN, George James
Address: 65 Swinbrook Road

BROWN, George James Head Married12 years M 35 1876 Greengrocers Assistant London Kensington VIEW
BROWN, Emma Edith Wife Married F 33 1878 London Kensington VIEW
BROWN, George Son M 11 1900 School London Kensington VIEW
BROWN, Lillie Daughter F 10 1901 School London Kensington VIEW
BROWN, Alfred Son M 8 1903 School London Kensington VIEW
BROWN, Nellie Daughter F 7 1904 School London Kensington VIEW
BROWN, Tommy Son M 4 1907 London Kensington VIEW
BROWN, Violet Daughter F 3 1908 London Kensington VIEW
BROWN, Rose Daughter F 1 1910 London Kensington VIEW
RG number: RG14
Piece: 182
Reference: RG14PN182 RG78PN6 RD2 SD3 ED18 SN273
Registration District: Kensington
Sub District: Kensington North
Enumeration District: 18
Parish: Kensington
Address: 65 Swinbrook Road
County: London
(Married 12 years...........7 children born and living)

1901 England Census
about George J Brown Name: George J Brown
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Emma E Brown
Gender: Male
Where born: North Kensington, London, England

Civil Parish: Kensington
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints Notting Hill
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration District: Kensington
Sub-registration District: Kensington Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 56
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 302
Piece: 28
Folio: 120
Page Number: 38
Household Members: Name Age
George J Brown 26
Emma E Brown 23
George W Brown 1
Lillian A Brown 2 8 Months

I am having problems with the Ancestry site at the moment........

Every page i try to view is temporarily unavailabe.

Ancestry has been a right pain for the last 20 mins or so

I wonder????

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about James George Brown
Name: James George Brown
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 28 Nov 1877
Father's Name: James George Brown Occ:Plumber
Mother's Name: Caroline Brown
Parish or Poor Law Union: Notting Hill All Saints
Borough: Kensington and Chelsea
Register Type: Parish Registers
............
The possible siblings baptisms on Ancestry seem to point to this family:
1881 census transcription details for: 1, Angola Mews, Kensington

RG number: RG11
Piece: 37
Folio: 139
Page: 44
Reg. District: Kensington
Sub District: Kensington Town
Parish: Kensington
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 1, Angola Mews, Kensington
County: London, Middlesex
BROWN, John Head Married M 34 1847 Builders Labourer
London, London, Middlesex
BROWN, Caroline Wife Married F 31 1850 Wife Of Labourer
BROWN, Louisa Daughter Single F 7 1874 Scholar
Blind
BROWN, Caroline Daughter Single F 5 1876 Scholar
BROWN, James G Son Single M 3 1878
BROWN, F Ada Daughter Single F 1 1880

a plumber in 1901 and 1911

1901

RG number: RG13
Piece: 29
Folio: 68
Page: 38
Reg. District: Kensington
Sub District: Kensington Town
Parish: Kensington
Enum. District: 59
Ecclesiastical District: St Columb Notting Hill
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 1, Angola Mews, Kensington
County: London

BROWN, James Head Married M 55 1846 Plumber
Marylebone, London
BROWN, Carloine Wife Married F 50 1851
Marylebone, London



1911

RG14PN43 RG78PN2 RD1 SD2 ED3 SN104
Reg. District: Paddington
Sub District: Paddington Central
Parish: Paddington
Enum. District: 3
Address: 30 Kensal Road
County: London


BROWN, James George Head Married M 65 1846 Plumber Mary Le Bone London
BROWN, Caroline Wife Married
41 years F 60 1851 Clearkingwell London

???

1891

RG number: RG12
Piece: 29
Folio: 22
Page: 46
Reg. District: Kensington
Sub District: Kensington Town
Parish: Kensington
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District: All Saints
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 1, Bevington Road, Kensington
County: London


BROWN, James Head Married M 45 1846 Gas Fitter
Worsley, Lancashire
BROWN, Caroline Wife Married F 41 1850
Kensington, London
>>>>>BROWN, George Son M 14 1877
Kensington, London
BROWN, Flora Daughter F 11 1880
Kensington, London
BROWN, Mable Daughter F 8 1883
Kensington, London



?? Flora

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name:
Florence Ada Brown

Record Type:
Baptism

Baptism Date:
21 Feb 1883 (born 27th Sept 1880)

Father's Name:
James George Brown (Plumber)

Mother's Name:
Caroline Brown

Parish or Poor Law Union:
Notting Hill Christ Church

Borough:
Kensington and Chelsea

Register Type:
Parish Registers


Address - Angola Mews (same as 1901 census)

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906


Name:
Eliza Mabel Brown

Record Type:
Baptism

Baptism Date:
21 Feb 1883 (born 6th Dec 1882)

Father's Name:
James George Brown

Mother's Name:
Caroline Brown

Parish or Poor Law Union:
Notting Hill Christ Church

Borough:
Kensington and Chelsea

Register Type:
Parish Registers

That looks like them to me,Choccy,

The address on the 1891 image is also 1 Angola Mews.


Maureenxx

1871

RG number: RG10
Piece: 42
Folio: 35
Page: 64
Reg. District: Kensington
Sub District: Kensington Town
Parish: Kensington
Enum. District: 31
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Barton Terrace, Kensington
County: London, Middlesex

BROWN, George Head M 25 1846 Middlesex (Gas fitter)
BROWN, Caroline Wife F 22 1849 Middlesex


Marriage certificate to Caroline English has him as a Bricklayer and his father as a Foreman at Gas Works. ??possibility that occupations should be the other way round

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921


Name:
Florence Ada Brown

Estimated Birth Year:
abt 1879

Age:
23

Spouse Name:
Charles Richard Mott

Spouse Age:
23

Record Type:
Marriage

Event Date:
25 Dec 1902

Parish:
Notting Hill Christ Church

Borough:
Kensington and Chelsea

Father Name:
James George Brown (Plumber)

Spouse Father Name:
Thomas Mott

Register Type:
Parish Register

Address of bride - 1 Angola Mews

I think one of the children's birth certs is going to be needed!

This looks like the Brown/English pair:
England Census about James Brown
Name: James Brown
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Caroline Brown
Father: Richard English
Gender: Male
Where born: Chelsea, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Fulham
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 1 Raven Place
Marital Status: Married

Occupation: Bricklayer
Registration District: Fulham
Sub-registration District: Fulham
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 70
Folio: 20
Page Number: 35
James Brown 34
Caroline Brown 30
Emily Brown 9
Beatrice Brown 7
Edith Brown 4
James R. Brown 1
Richard English 74

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 70; Folio: 20; Page: 35

There's the marriage for James George Brown to Caroline Grimme in 1870 but he's a blacksmith.

Maureen

Firstly sincere apologies for the long delay in my reply. Unfortunately a friend called round and did not leave for several hours so I could not get back to the computer until it was rather late. Thank you all so much for your sterling efforts. I think you have finally 'cracked' it choccy with the 1 Angola Mews address housing the family I have been searching for. What hasn't helped anyone is the fact that father and son are both James George/George James and transpose their names at will. I am truly grateful - I didn't think I would ever get to the bottom of all this. Thanks again all of you.

Just started on this family and am also questioning the parents of Winifred May Brown, I have the 1913 marriage certificate for her possible parents, George James Brown and Emily Edith Pullon, but the 1911 census for George James Brown and Emma Edith says they were married 12 years, and the wife's name is Emma not Edith.

Was this ever resolved?

Alan

Alan

If you wish to try to make contact with Margaret, click on her name to send a message

She may not think to look at this thread now

They must have lied on the census..............not in the least unusual

Margaret says they married AFTER all their children were born

Have you thought of getting Winifred's birth cert?

The 'wife's' name on 1911 census is Emma E..............quite often Emma and Emily got mixed up

Hope this helps.......

British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920


Name:Winifred May Brown

Birth Date:19 May 1911

Birth Place:Hensington (Kensington0

Document Year:1915

Relationship to Soldier:Child

Form Title:Descriptive Report Enlistment

George James Brown Self (Head)
Emily Edith Pulla (Pullen) Spouse
Lilian Ada Brown Child
Violet Florence Brown Child
>>>>>>>Winifred May Brown Child
Rose Ethel Brown Child
Nellie Mildred Brown Child
Alfred James Brown Child
Thomas Henry Brown Child
Edward Albert Brown Child

Address - 14 Rendle Street, Westbourne Park

(married 17th February 1913 at Kensington Registry office)




1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census

14 Rendle Street North Kensington W, Kensington, London, England


Charlie Pullen Son - Male 0 1911 - -

Bert Pullen Head - Male 26 1885 Paddington London Porter G W R

Alice Pullen Wife - Female 22 1889 London London -

Thanks everyone, I will obtain her birth certificate, however the service record goes a long way to resolving my concerns.