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I've had another look at the 1833 marriage, and I'm not able to make out the witness name either - other than I think it starts with M so not much help sorry.

Thank you Flip. I thought divorce would be unlikely and I too have wondered why there was a five year gap between her marriage and James's birth and why she didn't have children before then. Frustratingly I just can't make out the Christian name of the Minshull witness on the marriage cert. It wouldn't be of any importance if Thomas Worthington was a distant relative but it is relevant if my husband was genetically descended from a Minshull and not a Worthington. He was my husband's great grandfather. My husband died in 2008 so I cannot tell him about this. I know he would have been very interested. My son Richard is intrigued about his possibly different biological ancestor..James William carried on the Minshull name by giving it to at least two of his children as a middle name-Amy and Elizabeth so it must have meant something to him.Thanks again!

Divorce is probably a non-starter, women couldn't divorce their husbands back then, and it cost a lot of money so highly unlikely they divorced. Samuel may have died pre-registration, or like you say she may have been a bigamist.

Either way, he was not named on the christening so I would doubt he was the father no matter what the birth cert says. A married woman could name her husband as a child's father even if he wasn't there - my ggm had younger sisters born long after the death of her father but he was named on their birth certs but not on their christening records.

It is also strange, though not unknown, but she married Samuel in 1833 but didn't have a child until 1838 - or had earlier children who died?

I wondered about Mr Smith on the 1861 census - probably why she dropped a few years off her age! Looks like she continued with the lie about her age when she married Thomas in 1871, but if it is the same person as on the 1861 census he must have added a few years (45 and a bachelor).

Have you made out the witness, I can read Mary Owen, but the other looks like ? William Worthington.

Thanks to all those who have replied to my post about Samuel Minshull, all very interesting. To answer the various questions-I found a reference to a birth on 18th July 1813 in Manchester, parents John Minshull and Ellen. Ellen's maiden name (a guess) was Walmsley. I have the marriage certificate for Thomas Worthington and Ellen Minshull on Dec 11th 1844. Ellen is listed as a widow. Her father Peter Grundy is listed as a painter, as was Samuel M. On James William's's birth certificate the father is given as Samuel Minshull, mother Ellen Minshull formerly Grundy.. As a matter of interest Ellen went on to marry a third time, to the Thomas Smith listed in the 1861 census as her lodger!. Possibly the death of Samuel Minshull in 1847 is him but this would imply that she was not a widow at her second marriage but either divorced from Samuel- or even a bigamist!. It is interesting that she is listed as a spinster on James's baptism record and the father's name was not given as it was on the birth certificate in August. William's baptism took place nearly 3 months after his birth, in October. Very strange!

The 1851 census is so badly damaged, the christian names for James W have been torn off, but he is on the census as Minshull and not Worthington and stepson as you have said. There is another child - this is his christening, father a bookkeeper (as he was on the 1844 marriage) abode Salford.

Thomas Worthington
Birth Date: 28 Apr 1845
Baptism Date: 27 Jul 1845
Parish: Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Father's Name: Thomas Worthington
Mother's Name: Ellen Worthington
Archive Roll: 766

It looks like Ellen is a widow by 1861 (and has dropped a few years off her age), JW now using the name Worthington

Thomas Worthington
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Ellen Worthington
Gender: Male
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Pendleton
Ecclesiastical parish: Eccles
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration District: Salford
Sub-registration District: Pendleton
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 34
Piece: 2903
Folio: 93
Page Number: 7
Household Members: Name Age
Ellen Worthington 37
William Worthington 21 <<<<<<
Thomas Worthington 15
Thomas Smith 22 (boarder)

Doesn't get any nearer to finding Samuel though!
ADDED - if you can find no record of Samuel apart from the marriage how have you established he was born around 1813 please?

There are 5 christenings on the same day, all with abode "Stretford" abb by the same vicar. All the others have father's named apart from James William - it only names a mother and I would agree with Aviegal that it states spinster.

I wonder if it means Samuel was already gone, and not actually the father??

Re your comment above aviegal :

" the column for Profession read Spinster but I know that makes no sense"

I have seen the term 'spinster' being used for someone who spins yarn or wool so it could mean this?

Dea x

Just showing this because Samuel is a painter and I can't find them on later census records for definite.


1841 census transcription details for: Weston Street, St Olave, Southwark
Print Close

National Archive Reference:
RG number: HO107
Piece: 1087
Book/Folio: 11/10
Page: 12
Reg. District: St Olave Union
Sub District: St Olave & St Thomas
Parish: St Olave
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough: Southwark
Address: Weston Street, St Olave, Southwark
County: Surrey
Name Relation Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
ANNIS, Mary F 35 1806
MACDONALD, Sarah F 25 1816
TORBIT, Henry M 12 1829
TORBIT, Charles M 11 1830
>>MINSHALL, Samuel M 25 1816
>>MINSHALL, Sarah F 20 1821
BENNINGTON, James M 20 1821 Surrey
BENNINGTON, Sarah F 20 1821 Surrey
MOSS, William M 20 1821 Surrey
HUGGARD, John M 25 1816 Surrey
HUGGARD, Elizabeth F 30 1811 Surrey

Ellen and James in 1841?


1841 census transcription details for: Gilbert Street, Manchester
Print Close

National Archive Reference:
RG number: HO107
Piece: 570
Book/Folio: 17/9
Page: 12
Reg. District: Manchester
Sub District: Deansgate
Parish: Manchester
Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District:
City/Municipal Borough: Manchester
Address: Gilbert Street, Manchester
County: Lancashire
Name Relation Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
AMOS, Robert M 40 1801 Scotland
AMOS, Jane F 35 1806
AMOS, Thomas M 15 1826
AMOS, John M 13 1828 Lancashire
AMOS, Robert M 9 1832 Lancashire
STEPHENS, George M 25 1816
PICKERING, Elizabeth F 20 1821 Lancashire
>>MINSHELL, Ellen F 25 1816 Lancashire
>>MINSHELL, William M 2 1839 Lancashire

The birth of the son for ref.


Manchester, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1915 about James William Minshull
Name: James William Minshull
Baptism Date: 7 Oct 1838
Parish: Stretford, St Matthew
Parish as it Appears: Manchester & Chapel Of Stretford
Father's Name: Minshull
Mother's Name: Helen Minshull
Reference Number: L89/1/3/2
Item Number: 10
Archive Roll: 609


I would have said the column for Profession read Spinster but I know that makes no sense.

?? For larceny.


England & Wales, Criminal Registers, 1791-1892 about Samuel Minshall
Name: Samuel Minshall
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1813
Date of Trial: 6 Apr 1846
Trial Year: 1846
Location of Trial: Lancashire, England
Sentence: Acquittal



???


England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915 about Samuel Minshall
Name: Samuel Minshall
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1847
Registration District: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 20
Page: 1085

Not sure if this is about the same chap. This one is a commission agent, dealer and chapman whereas on the marriage above he was a painter.

Headline: A fiat in bankruptcy is awarded and issued against SAMUEL MINSHULL, of Manchester.
Publication:Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser
Publication date:Saturday 13 August 1836

He was basically being summoned to give an account of his affairs.

It is unwise to assume ( until a record of death is found) that because his wife re-married he was deceased.

Just in case it help, Samuel was a painter when he married:

Manchester, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1930

Name: Samuel Minshull
Marriage Date: 23 Dec 1833
Parish: Manchester, St John
Parish as it Appears: Manchester, St John
Spouse's Name: Ellen Grundy
Reference Number: GB127.M403/6/3/12

Is this Your Samuel ?


Samuel Minshull
Baptism Date18 Jul 1813
Parish:Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Father's Name:John Minshull
Mother's Name:Ellen Minshull

This looks like the one who died in 1878


1871
Samuel Minshull
Age:59
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1812
Where born:Over, Cheshire, England
Civil Parish:Over Ecclesiastical parish:Over, St John
County/Island:Cheshire

Samuel Minshull 59 - widower
Ann Minshull 10 - granddaughter
Elizabeth Minshull 28 - visitor

This one fits age wise


:
Samuel Minshull
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1813
Date of Registration:Apr-May-Jun 1878
Age at Death:65
Registration District:Northwich
Inferred County:Cheshire
Volume:8a
Page:185

I would like to find information about Samuel Minshull's death/disappearance. He was born around 1813 and married Ellen Grundy in 1833 in Manchester. They had a son called James William, born 1838 in Stretford Manchester. Ellen remarried, to Thomas Worthington in 1844 and James is listed in the later census as James William Minshull Worthington and as Thomas's stepson. My late husband was descended from James William. It seems that my husband biological ancestor, therefore, was a Minshull, not a Worthington!. I can find no record of Samuel Minshull (not on 1841 census) so he must have died between 1837 and 1844 when Ellen remarried. Does anyone know anything about Samuel?