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Hi ChristinaS,
I think I confused myself let alone others so sorry about that;
On the mar. cert. for Louisa's marriage (father is John Ellis #) sigs are; John Ellis* & Mary Ann Ellis.
Emily Grace Ellis 's # mar. cert 1876 (father Henry Ellis) sigs are; John Ellis* & F?.Barge.
Louisa Ellis's # mar. cert. 1878 (father Henry Ellis) sigs are; Francis Bradding ? & Sarah Ann Simpson
* these sigs are the same
So = John Ellis (mar.1876), Emily (mar. 1876) & Louisa (mar. 1878) are
all siblings #
Unfortunately I don't have John's birth cert. or baptism records which was the purpose of this thread.
but going by the various censuses Henry was a carman (1841), Labourer (1851), Tanner (1861), Labourer (1871)
Alan
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Now that's thrown me!
So the John Ellis signature on Louisa Ellis' marriage to Henry Plummer, and the signature of your John Ellis on his marriage certificate to Pheobe are the same?
This Louisa's father was John Ellis - labourer.
The Louisa from the family on the censuses married George William Simpson in 1878. She was born in 1860.
More questions - On the brith certificate you have for the John Ellis born 1851 in Bermondsey, what was his father's occupation. And what was the mother's maiden name, please.
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Ignore the sad face above - that was for your penultimate post.
Am going to look into your last post now.
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ChristinaS,
An after thought - the witnesses on the marriage entry for Louisa Ellis
when she married Henry W.Plummer in 1868 are;
John Ellis & Mary ann Ellis
As for your earlier suggestion about Emily Grace Ellis's marriage in 1876,
the witness signatures are ; John Ellis & F? Barge and the two John Ellis's signs do match including his own marriage to Phoebe Hodge.
Alan
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ChristinaS
The witnesses on the marriage cert. are;
G.S.West & J. Matthew
I don't think that helps does it.
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Alan, who were the witnesses at John and Phoebe's marriage?
They may provide a connection with the family on the censuses.
Sorry if I'm asking you to repeat yourself, but I can't see it wrritten down here.
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Hi Gins,
Thanks for pointing that marriage out. I had seen that tree but as you say, there is nothing to support it.
I've tried looking for them using the names but nothing comes up.
I've noted the death regis.
Alan
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Hi Gins,
Thanks for pointing that marriage out. I had seen that tree but as you say, there is nothing to support it.
I've tried looking for them using the names but nothing comes up.
I've noted the death regis.
Alan
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Familysearch.org has a baptism for:
Matilda Symson - June 1817 - Akenham, Suffolk
which ties in nicely with the 1861 census.
I know you need to verify that you have the correct family first though.
This would mean that Matilda was 34, 38, 41 and 43 years old when she had her children. Perfectly possible, but unusual.
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A tree at ancestry has this as his wife but there is nothing on there to verify it?
Henry Ellis
thomas Family Tree
Birth: 1813
Death: 1877 - London, England
Spouse: Matilda Symson
Deaths Mar 1877
------------------------------------------------
ELLIS Henry 65 Lambeth 1d 279
The tree owner only has one child listed and that is Mary Ann Ellis 1840. Do you have the birth certificate for her?
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Hi ChristinaS,
Yes I do have access to ancestry now and have d/loaded the marriage cert. to compare signatures of John Ellis. Unfortunately they are not quite the same but there is a gap of some 20 years.
The marriage cert. I have is a "copy" of the original entry so its easy to compare.
The reason why I discounted the 1851 birth of John in Bermondsey, is because it states his parents are John & Sarah Ellis whereas I'm looking
for an entry with father Henry.
I can only think there were several deaths of infants to cause such a gap between Mary Ann & the later children.
On the other hand could there have been two marriages of "John Ellis to a Phoebe"?
Alan
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Deaths Dec 1852 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------------
ELLISS John Henry Newington 1d 147
(could be that 1852 Birth)
Chris :)
edits (did see a question earlier about Witnesses on Marriage cert., have you got their names, in case of a clue!)
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Why do you think the 1851 birth reg. for John Ellis isn't the one you want? What makes you think it says that he's parents are John and Sarah?
The siblings showing with John (Emily Grace, James and Louisa) were all registered at Bermondsey.
I'm not sure where Mary Ann Ellis b.1840 fits in. She's with Henry and Matilda on the 1841 census, but there's a large age gap between her and John.
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Just thought - If you ordered the marriage certificate from the GRO then they probably just sent you a transcribed copy, and the original signatures won't be on it.
It's so annoying when they do that.
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Alan, do you have access to Ancestry?
Emily Ellis b.1856, who is a sister to John Ellis on the 1861 census that you found, got married in 1876 at Camberwell Christ Church.
Her marriage certificate is on London Marriages and Banns.
One of her witnesses is John Ellis - you could check to see if it matches the signature you have on your John Ellis' marriage certificate.
If it's the same, then you probably have the right family.
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Hi ***alviegal***,
Just seen your last replies.
Thank you very much most appreciated.
Alan
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Hi all,
Sorry been away for a while.
GB; The address on John's marriage cert. is "131 Long Acre" presumably St.Martin in the Field, Middx, also I think that could be them in the 1871 census but incorrectly transcribed and ties up with the following.
***alviegal*** Thats a good find for the 1871 census
Gins; I haven't seen that entry before (1852) so that could be him.
Thanks for all your help.
Alan
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He gives his birth place as:
1881 1891 Bermondsey
1901 Southwark
1911 London
:-S
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1891 census transcription details for: 16, Dover Buildings, Old Kent Road, St George The Martyr Southwark, Southwark
Print Close
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12
Piece: 345
Folio: 39
Page: 29
Reg. District: St Saviour Southwark
Sub District: Kent Road
Parish: St George the Martyr Southwark
Enum. District: 10
Ecclesiastical District: St Mary Magdalen
City/Municipal Borough: Southwark
Address: 16, Dover Buildings, Old Kent Road, St George The Martyr Southwark, Southwark
County: London
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
ELLIS, John Head Married M 39 1852 Leather Dresser
Bermondsey, London
ELLIS, Phoebe G Wife Married F 40 1851
Regents Park, London
ELLIS, Ernest J Son Single M 14 1877 Scholar
Peckham, London
ELLIS, Horace B Son Single M 9 1882 Scholar
Islington, London
ELLIS, Amy M Daughter F 7 1884 Scholar
Southwark, London
ELLIS, Walter S Son Single M 5 1886 Scholar
Southwark, London
ELLIS, Will H Son Single M 3 1888
Peckham, London
1901 census transcription details for: 170, Great Dover Street, Newington
Print Close
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG13
Piece: 371
Folio: 41
Page: 36
Reg. District: St Saviour Southwark
Sub District: Trinity Newington
Parish: Newington
Enum. District: 2
Ecclesiastical District: Holy Trinity
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 170, Great Dover Street, Newington
County: London
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
ELLIS, John Head Married M 49 1852 Tanner
Southwark, Surrey
ELLIS, Phoebe Georgiena Wife Married F 50 1851
St Pancras
ELLIS, George Henry Son Single M 21 1880 Engineer
Islington
ELLIS, Harold Bertram Son Single M 19 1882
Invalid Islington
ELLIS, Amy Matilda Daughter Single F 17 1884 Milliner (Apprentice)
Okd Kent RD
ELLIS, Walter Stanley Son Single M 15 1886 Carpenter (Apprentice)
Okd Kent RD
ELLIS, Will Herbert Son Single M 13 1888 Scholar
Camberwell
ELLIS, Louisa Mary Daughter F 8 1893 Scholar
Old Kent RD
ELLIS, Clarice Maud Daughter Single F 4 1897 Scholar
Newington, Surrey
CARRIGAN, Michael Lodger Widower M 72 1829 Pensioner
Southwark B K Friars
1911 census transcription details for: 55 Trinity St S E
National Archive Reference:
RG14PN1797 RG78PN64 RD23 SD4 ED5 SN212
Reg. District: Southwark
Sub District: Newington North
Parish: St Mary Newington
Enum. District: 5
Address: 55 Trinity St S E
County: London
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
ELLIS, John Head Married M 59 1852 Engineer's Labourer, boiler maker London Bermondsey
ELLIS, Phoebe Georgina Wife Married
35 years F 60 1851 London St Pancras
ELLIS, Will Herbert Son Single M 23 1888 Clothier's Salesman London Peckham
ELLIS, Louisa Mary Daughter Single F 18 1893 Dial Writer London Camberwell
ELLIS, Clarice Maud Daughter F 14 1897 School London Southwark
BUTCHER, Mary Boarder Single F 41 1870 Resterant Cook Kent Whitable
9 children born, 2 had died.
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