General Chat

Thanks joylouise

It seems like years gone by they just used any name, my husband's grandfather and his half sister both put down John William Whitehouse as their fathers on their marriage certificates and neither of them had a father called that, his father was called Reuben Whitehouse and her father was James Greaves same as Herbert who we have been talking about in these posts! What a tangled web! I'd give anything for a time machine!!!

Thanks joylouise

It seems like years gone by they just used any name, my husband's grandfather and his half sister both put down John William Whitehouse as their fathers on their marriage certificates and neither of them had a father called that, his father was called Reuben Whitehouse and her father was James Greaves same as Herbert who we have been talking about in these posts! What a tangled web! I'd give anything for a time machine!!!

Janey, the Government Record Office site shows his surname as Greaves in both cases; that's why I think it could be a case of the second registration including his father's name.

This is also the site that has Copy A recorded with the first registration.

You'll probably know that some people change their names without a Deed Poll. Often, in years past (probably because of cost in some cases) it simply became the name you gave and became known by. Sometimes it was children, other times it was a partner adopting the other's surname.

One of my gt gt grandmothers married using her mother's maiden name as her parents were not married at the time of her birth (they married later), however, she gave her father's surname as her maiden name for the births of her children.

Maybe she first registered him as Whitehouse her name then registered him as Greaves his father's name but then when he died at age 3 yrs his death was registered in the name Whitehouse....possibly because his birth was first registered as Whitehouse...does this make sense?

I think it could be likely that the first registration was without a father's name and the second certificate was issued with his father's name on it. If the parents were still unmarried at the time the second cert was issued, it would still show the child with his mother's surname.

Did you look at the GRO site?

Even if a couple are married the birth certificate can be changed sometimes years after the birth. Most commonly this applies when a woman has one or more children by person B even though she is married to person A. In the first instance of issued birth certs the children get surname (A). Now she dovorces and marries (B) with whom she may have more kids. Now new birth certs are issued for the kids who end up with surname (B).
Although the BMD reference for (A) remains any certs issued after the change will be for (B). Any extant certs for (A) cannot be used for purposes such as passports.
Back in the 1920s both father and mother's names could appear on the birth cert whether they were married or not so long as the putative father filled out the form. At some stage the mother could do so as well even though unmarried, I am not sure when the change came in.

Thank you Rose
I've just looked at this, now I'm really confused, wonder the changed his surname and removed his father's name, I didn't know this was allowed,
this particular branch of my tree has a few things that we don't know the reasons for, wish I could go back in time and see the situations and why the decisions were made.

Registered under both surnames later:

Births Sep 1912
Greaves Herbert Fern Ecclesall B. 9c 741
Whitehouse Herbert Fern Ecclesall B. 9c 741

Rose

Phyll
They aren't reg twice

When a couple are unmarried but the father is named in the cert in theory the child could be known by either surname

Whichever surname a copy cert is ordered in its will be the one certificate supplied

I have a relative registered twice. once under the Mother's name & once with the Father's name - they aren't married.

as i posted the one with mmn Billard is a different family

father was Herbert Greaves mother was Jane Billard

I have his birth certificate and his birthday is 26th Feb 1912 registered in August 1912 seems a long time to take to register
I'm more intrigued into why his death would be under his mother's surname from her previous marriage
This Whitehouse family is driving me crazy with the children and their whereabouts!

Thank you everyone

Janey, you could contact the GRO to ask why 'Copy A' was written under the first HG birth.

It is easy to do online.

They have probably come across this before.

Have you looked at the GRO site?

There are two entries for Herbert Greaves with mmn Fern.

The first in J Qtr has typed underneath it: Copy A.

The second is S Qtr.


The other HG with mmn Billard is in S Qtr.


All are at Ecclesall Bierlow.

Unless the mother went by Fern and Billard or was illegitimate then used both of her parents' surnames, it could be that there were actually two Herbert Greaves born in the same quarter. Not unusual among brothers.

Hi Shirley

There is 3 registrations on find my past, the one you gave mentioned is the 3rd on the list I haven't looked st this one as it us different maiden name but the first 2 state fern as maiden name one says 2nd quarter the other says 3rd quarter

I believe it can be.

My grandfather's birth was registered twice on the same day - once with the correct parents' names (obvious from the censuses, his baptism and the BC in his effects), then with one other entry between them registered again with mother's maiden name the same (surname sounding the same but spelt differently) and the father's Christian name different from the real one. The informant was his mother.

I contacted the registrar of the district he was born in and she could come up with no explanation at. I think it was a case of either market day exuberance by the registrar and/or a case of the registrar turning over a page and thinking he had not written the birth down beforehand then getting the wrong father's name.

Adding to this mystery was the fact that the birth date was recorded as being a month after his actual birth date.

I was lucky that Dad had told me his father's birthday then I happened across his baptism which was, according to his BC, before his birth!

The explanation for this is, I believe, that his birth was not registered within the period it should have been. In 1939 my grandfather gave his correct month of birth.

Oh what a tangled web we weave ..... :-D

Looks like same name different Family as mmn are different

These are the parents of the second child

Marriages Sep 1911 (>99%)
Billard Jane Ecclesall B. 9c 639
Greaves Herbert Ecclesall Bielow 9c 639

this is the correct person, the mothers maiden name is Fern
Father is James Greaves Mother Mary Sophia Whitehouse (nee Fern)
they weren't married, but on two previous children he isn't even mentioned on the birth certificates and they have Whitehouse as their surname but Greaves as middle name
Ida Greaves Whitehouse 1907
James Greaves Whitehouse 1903
Herbert's death at age 3 1915 was registered as Herbert Whitehouse and not Greaves,
I was thinking maybe they were just having a fling until Herbert was born and they perhaps lived together
He was 16 years her junior

Is this the birth you are looking at? :-

First name(s) Herbert
Last name Greaves
Birth year 1912
Birth quarter 2
Registration month -
Mother's maiden name Fern
District Ecclesall Bierlow
County Yorkshire
Country England
Volume 9C
Page 753
Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006

There is a different birth registered later in the same year:-

First name(s) Herbert
Last name Greaves
Birth year 1912
Birth quarter 3
Registration month -
Mother's maiden name Billard
District Ecclesall Bierlow
County Yorkshire
Country England
Volume 9C
Page 730
Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006

EDIT - what is the maiden name of the mother of the Herbert Greaves you are looking for? You mention Fern and also mention Whitehouse ???

I can't find a birth of a Herbert Greaves with mother's maiden name Whitehouse.

Kath. x

can a birth be actually registered twice

on searches I have same person born 2nd quarter and then again 3rd quarter

birth cert says born feb 1912 but registered aug 1912

thought it was a bit perculiar

Herbert Greaves Sheffield 1912 maiden name of mother Fern
father James Greaves mother Mary Sophia Whitehouse