Genealogy Chat

Now here is a site for people who'd like to play at ahnentafels!
http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo

This was being discussed this evening on the Mediaeval group I belong to. Someone for "fun" had decided to work out how many descents that database had for Prince William from Charlemagne.
This is what he said.......and I think his computer must be more powerful than my laptop!!!

"The Roglo database (http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo) currently shows
roughly 1.1 billion paths from Charlemagne to Prince William. As
would be expected, over 95% of these are through Prince Charles -
although this is partially because Diana's ancestry is far less
complete on this database."


I then decided to go and do a hunt myself for some of my own ancestors. I put in a request for ancestors to as far back as possible of my 8 x great grandfather Henry Clinton.
It produced an impressive ahnentafel though including very early Islamic ancestry I think is still debatable. The database is missing the ancestry of Henry's second wife (my ancestor) and her lot include a lot of other interesting royals.

You could have a play putting in names of historical figures and see what comes up.

Sue
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Thanks Sue, haven't heard of this till now.
Shiela

Late!
The night is young. LOL

Sue
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Thanks Sue,nudging ,as it's too late to take all that in!
Brenda

nudged for later

Exactly Janet.

Most forms of tree printouts will need large amounts of paper to print.
Although it does only show direct ancestors an ahnentafel can fit a lot of information in little space. My ahnentafel fits on 28 pages of A4 so far and that goes back to the furthest generation back.......though I haven't put in all the times people are duplicated.

As I've searched I've often come across the same groups of ancestors and I think "Oh it's them again". Way back in the early 11th century there is a family called Vermandois who appear to have been the ancestors of just about everyone who was everyone.

Sue
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Ahnentafel reports are great for sharing small parts of your tree with other relatives.I have used them with American relatives who are interested in my Irish Family History but have no connection to my English and Scottish Family history. I have done up to 15 generations but you can also get reports called "Tiny Tafel" which just give 3 generations and these are also very good.

Mine works from my Generations Grande Suite software programme, which I bought back in 2001. Most of my relatives have Family Tree and Generations does not sit with this and is not interchangeable, so when I sent them a Generations Tree they could not open it.

I thought a couple of years ago I would have to change to Family Tree but the Ahnentafel Report has got over my problem and even with a new computer and a patch for windows XP I have still been able to use Generations because of these reports.

As Sue says you can make these Reports and keep them in places on your computer, attaching them to wherever you want. I attach them to people/villages/towns that I am researching.

I presume Family Tree has the same facility?

However if you want to print out your reports then you may find you will use a lot of paper and ink, as for just 7 generations I used 26 sheets of a 4 paper! I have not yet tried to even think about printing out my 11 generations going back to 1605 as i think that might be colossal!

Janet North London borders

Hi Margaret
I'm not quite sure what you mean as my tree program (www.genopro.com) allows me to start and open as many separate trees as I like. So I simply make different little trees and save them in different files on my computer. I also print off each section and I have each one in a plastic pocket in a document file called Family Trees.
My tree on GR is simply the basic lines and not going back on every branch I know about.

Tassietina
Ahentafels are something you have to make yourself! Unless you find you are part of a larger and well documented family in which case you may find some of the research already done for you. Even then your own ahnentafel will be your own numbering and unique to you.

To research your tree you have to start the hard way by going back generation by generation using censuses and parish records. I did most of mine in my local records office originally because a lot of my ancestors were from around where I now live. That took years and many hundreds of hours.

The IGI online is generally good but parts are unreliable and incomplete. You can go to your local Family History centre and view ordered microfiches of parish records etc. if you can't get to the actual local Records Offices.
http://www.familysearch.org/ On this page you can enter where you live and find the closest Family History Centre to your home.

Sometimes you can get really lucky and contact someone who has already done a lot of research. If anyone who contacts me shares the ancestors I researched myself I am happy to send them print outs of trees and word documents full of information. I have met people who have done a lot of careful research on different branches and they have shared with me.

If you get really lucky and find an ancestor who links you back to the medieval nobility then you will find much of the work already done for you. There are numerous sites with trees and ahnentafels online plus groups discussing the complicated relationships and arguing about what the evidence is for various theories.
However there are also a LOT of really awful trees online created by enthusiastic but gullible people who are happy to gather anything. I have found trees going back to the same fictional genealogies as in The Da Vinci Code and I have come across numerous trees online which go zooming back to Adam and Eve.
Without wishing to offend any creationists among us I'm afraid I prefer my own tree to be a work of fact not fiction. I have relations who are a geologist and a paleoanthroplogist so I discard anything which relies more on faith than the lines professional genealogists think are proven.

Even if I come across what looks like a well researched piece of genealogy I still do what I can to check it. I have discovered two very different versions of one branch of my family online and I eventually made my own mind up after contacting universities and museums to ask for copies of documents. I am always suspicious of other people's work until I have looked at it carefully.

Good luck
Sue
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Funnily enough Sue, I've just started making 'separate' trees. I started with one big one, mine and hubbies etc, with everyone I ever found to be connected in any way - this is what's on GR at the moment.

However, now that I'm a little more experienced (I hope) in this type of research, I've decided to do one tree for each of my great grandparents - this brings it down a little bit. I need to edit my GR tree quite a bit, I'm not happy with it now, it's just what I wanted at the time! I can then always merge my ancestors into one tree, hubby's into another etc.

Fascinating info though Sue, thanks :)

Laura

Sue where does one find these ahnentafels is there an online site or does one have to physically visit the record offices? I am just starting to seriously build my family tree and get very frustrated that a lot of records (i.e. Christenings etc.) or not available on-line

What do you mean, you have created smallish charts for part of your family? How do you do that please? I'd like to break my tree up into different branches, but not a clue how to do it.

Margaret

I'm glad to have been of help!

I remember joining an Internet group with people discussing ahnentafels and I was nervous of asking so I did a hunt on Google. I too had seen lists of ancestors and not realised that the numbers meant more than just listing the people!

The only problem I find is that by the time you get back a few generations even multiplying or dividing by 2 can make your brain spin if you are doing it as a word document!

Without going down the Da Vinci Code route or into dubious Biblical genealogies my furthest back ancestor on my ahnentafel is...........wait for it!
.........................
19140575538188368 Winithar, King of the Ostrogoths b.bef.390 and d. bef. 438

He is my 52x great and on my generation 55. That generation ought.........if you double with every generation have
18,014,367,789,481,984 ancestors but that is far more people than have ever lived. This is because everyone on generations that far back is an ancestor multiple times over.
We are all more closely related than most people realise.

Sue
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Sue

Thanks for this.

I've printed ahnentafel lists from my FT programme in the past but have never found them useful.- until you explained the numbering system.

Brilliant thanks again

Laura

There are a number of good family tree programs. I started off with the free version of Genopro (www.genopro.com) and I then updated to the bought version which has a few more features. However the free one is excellent. That allows merging of trees.

I would be unable to merge all my information on one document. Even before I discovered medieval ancestors I had one branch of my tree which needed some 20 sheets of paper to print out on its own. I stick mine with glue so less mess!

What I have done is have a lot of files full of paper about each of my main lines though one of my families needs 3 lever arch files full to put the information in!
For each main section of my tree back to about the late 16th century I have created a separate tree including siblings, spouses of siblings and sometimes their children. I have also created trees for some of their lines down to the present day because I get contacts alive now who fit those lines and I can then share the tree and show them where it joins mine about 300 years ago then on back on our shared heritage.

There is absolutely no way I could make one big tree in any printed format other than an ahnentafel because I can go back 55 generations (this is what you can do if you find a way back first to people like William the Conqueror and his cronies). 56 of us here on GR have him on our trees and I expect a lot of others know he's theirs too but don't want the Hot Matches.
There used to be some good family trees of various early royals on the Queen's official website but the downloads appear to have gone.
This one is also good though
http://www.mimas.ac.uk/~zzalsaw2/genealogies/
I print out parts of that and underline ancestors in red as I find them. I then write notes on my printouts saying which other sheets they link to.

There is no real best way to do this hobby. It is all going to depend on how much you find out and which branches you choose to explore. You may find a lot of dead ends or you may discover leads taking you all sorts of places. If your tree comes to a lot of dead ends then you might be able to do one big printed tree but as more and more goes online or you get the chance to research in Records Offices you might need to alter how you record your information.

Good hunting everyone and have fun

Sue
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If you don't mind sticking all the bits together, you can just print out an "all in one" tree from FTM. Depending on how many people you have in your tree you may have several blank pages round the edges but it does give you everything you have recorded. It just looks a bit of a mess with all the sticky tape.

Kath. x

Thanks for the info Sue - very useful!

If you wanted to show info on siblings, marriages, cousins etc as well - which form of tree do you recommend? It's just I'm going to visit a great uncle and he doesn't have a computer I can put my FTM on, but want to show him ALL the info I've got, I've written some of it out etc, and have played with different styles of trees, but just wondered what you thought was best. Ie. children of siblings, their children etc as well as my direct ancestors...

Thanks,
Laura

Yes Lynn

It's really easy to get carried away researching your family tree and do a lot on one line then get stuck perhaps and think that is the end of it.
I hadn't even thought about some branches of my tree until I filled in a fan chart and realised that there were big gaps in my father's ancestry that I hadn't researched. I grew up closer to my mother's family and knew more about them plus theirs have been easier for me to go and look for locally.
The fanchart made me realise that there were probably people alive in census times I hadn't looked for.

What I've also found fascinating is comparing my own fanchart with my husband's because we have similar places in similar positions on our charts. I've also discovered that his father's direct male ancestors came from a village only about 2 miles from where my father's direct male ancestors originated.

Sue
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Hi Sue
Thank you. Like others, I was probably too nervous to ask without looking stupid.This is really useful.
Di

Hi Sue,

Just to say many thanks for the explanation. I have converted my ancestors into this type of chart (a bow-tie chart that I downloaded free from Ancestry) and it highlights all the gaps immediately.

Its also a big help if you have a memory like mine and get easily confused by numerous ancestors who only seem to use 7 first names between the lot of them.

Lynn

In the past few days I have had several people asking me to explain what an ahnentafel is.
Despite having done family history for some years I only came across this term myself last year but it's a very useful way of recording a lot of information about direct ancestors in the shortest amount of space.

On any ahnentafel the person whose ancestry you are interested in is numbered 1

In the next generations this is how it goes:-

2 Father
3 Mother

4 Paternal Grandfather
5 Paternal Grandmother
6 Maternal Grandfather
7 Maternal Grandmother

(next set all great grandparents)
8 Father of Paternal grandfather
9 Mother of Paternal grandfather
10 Father of Paternal grandmother
11 Mother of Paternal grandmother
12 Father of Maternal grandfather
13 Mother of Maternal grandfather
14 Father of Maternal grandmother
15 Mother of Maternal grandmother

There is a pattern to this that is really easy to follow once you get the hang of it. Males are always even numbers and females always odd numbers. Fathers are always double the number of their child and mothers are double the number plus 1.

If you need to work out the child of someone on an ahnentafel then you divide by 2. For mothers you just ignore any remainder.

Some genealogists leave no gaps between generations but on my own I like to leave a line so it is easier to see. If you don't know an ancestor you can leave out a number. By the time you get back a few generations there would theoretically be thousands of ancestors in that generation but if you only know a few then you simply go straight from perhaps number 2456 to 3578 or whatever.

As you go back you may find ancestors repeated. In which case you can simply write something like 420 same as 410

Many family tree programs can be used to create an ahnentafel though you can do like me and write your own in a word document.

This system doesn't show siblings or cousins and is another way really of showing the same information that would be in a fanchart. However the biggest fan charts I've seen only go back about 10 generations before the spaces get too small to write in plus early generations on a fanchart are mainly gaps.
If you find a medieval link or an ancestry going just perhaps back to Tudor times then a ancestor chart may help you draw all the strands together.

Professional genealogists use ahnentafels because their clever computer programs can then work out exactly what the relationship is between two people from two different lists by comparing the numbers.

It is important to remember that the only person in the world who will have exactly the same ahnentafel as you will be any sibling you may have. Every other person with whom you share any ancestry will have a different ahnentafel and their numbers will differ but parts of their list may have some of the same people in the same order.

These websites are well worth reading to make this even clearer perhaps.

http://www.familychronicle.com/Ahnentafel.html

http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/article.aspx?article=6490

If you haven't yet found the fanchart on the homepage of the GR site then I suggest you print that out to sort out just a few generations. By putting fanchart into a search you can find a number of other examples of free downloads with perhaps more generation spaces.
But if, like me, no fanchart can hold them all and you are getting muddled and can't compare generations on one branch of your tree with others then an ahnentafel might help.

I still create smallish trees for branches of my family and I've printed off fancharts and done mini ancestries for particular individuals but it is handy to have all the direct ancestors on one document (even if it runs into a lot of pages....mine now has 28 sheets!).
I sometimes look down my ahnentafel and think "Do I know the ancestry of that individual?" I double their number to see if I've done any research and if not I sometimes google away and hunt online to see if anything turns up.

Good hunting!

Sue
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