Genealogy Chat

Hi Huia,

yes, I realised I'd goofed about the 14 days, versus 20, when I re-read your earlier posts.

I think I only raised the possibility of walking, partly in an attempt to put numbers to the 'worst case scenario' and partly to point out what an absurd idea it is. People /can/ and /have/ walked 100 k's or more to build a new life but that's evacuees not emigrants.

I think we can even strike out the canal option. If they could afford tickets to cross the Atlantic, I'm sure they could afford the train ride.


As for the mozzie problem: I gather that they prefer people who don't eat garlic (or insufficient doses of it). So when the Brits come on holiday to the Med, it's suppertime for the little ankle-biters.


Mark

Sorry, Mark, but 6 days walking from Leeds to Liverpool would leave only 8 days for the boat trip to NY. The boat arrived 14 days after they married in Leeds.
Somebody pm'd a website for a Norwegian shipping line which gave a time of 9-11 days for the ship so that gave 3-5 days to get from Leeds to Liverpool. If gt granddad made his bride walk the distance it is a wonder he lived to tell the tale!
I am sure they must have travelled by train/coach/canal.
Mark, you not sweet enough for the mozzies? It is only the females that bite. Like the human species.

Hi Huia,


thanks for setting me straight. I probably got the dodgy phonetics from the Billy Connolly series.

I forget the correct title but if they show a BBC series about "Great Self-Experimenters" down your way, there's an episode about the Panama canal, which might interest you.

Basically, there are some people who mozzies simply don't like to bite. Something about pheremones, maybe?

I think I'm one of them. On one particular holiday, all my companions were complaining about getting bitten but I wasn't touched. At the time, I put it down to the tanning lotion but this program made me think again. Definitely in the genes.


Superfluous now but, as the thread is drawing to a close, I can drop in my crude, back-of-envelope, calculation for the ship voyage.

Liverpool - Longitude 3W
New York - Longitude 75W
Practically a straight-line route
1 degree of longitude = 60 nautical miles (at the equator)
72 degrees = 4320nm
14 days = 336 hrs

Required average cruising speed 4320/336 = 12.8 kts

I think that's easily achievable, even by a paddle-steamer.

For routes which are not conveniently pointed due E-W or are anything /but/ straight, you need a globe and a piece of string. Wrap the traced-out length around the equator to measure the equivalent degrees longitude difference, then repeat, as above.



M

Hi Janet,

that and my somehwat pessimistic "Dragging suitcase: 1mph AND rest breaks" gives...

in fact, forget the rest breaks but limit them to 10 hours of actual walking per day, with the rest of the time going on meal-breaks, and sleep.

They could still make it to Liverpool, on foot, in 6 days, leaving 14 days for the steamer.

With the aid of a hand-cart, for the baggage, you could triple the walking speed but there are still limits to endurance so it wouldn't necessarily have cut the trip to 2 days, thanks to the need for overnight stops. Call it 3 days.

July was the right time to do it; no shortage of available daylight.


M

Thank you all. I am now completely satisfied that they could have made the journey to NY in 14 days or less.
Mark, the name for NZ is Aotearoa. You have obviously heard the incorrect pronunciation for it. It should be pronounced Ah-o (as in not)-teh (as in get)-ah-ro(t)-ah. That is the best I can do for the phonetics.
Think of the vowels as in the sentence Pa (a) let (e) me (I) drop (o) book (u). Or something like that. All syllables end in a vowel, in fact each vowel means a separate syllable. If you get ai it is not ay as in wait but ah-ee. Two separate sounds. Ng is not n-g but the dipthong ng, so Whangarei is Wha-nga-re-i not Whang-ga-re-i. There is some dispute over wh. I always understood that it is pronounced with the lips not quite together as an f but some people these days, even Maori, do pronounce it as an f.
Here endeth this lesson.

Re Panama canal. Our family legend had it that John was working for de Lesseps on the canal when Annie had the first child, and she didnt make it home to England in time. But first child was b in 1868 in Philadelphia and I found that de Lesseps' first failed attempt was 1881-89. I did discover that the Panama railway was built about 1867 onwards, so suspect this could have been what he was doing there then, and I found that a younger son was b 1881 in Auckland and the mother reg the birth and gave usual place of residence as Te Aroha (aboout 2 hrs drive these days). I then remembered hearing as a teenager that John had gone overseas to work leaving Annie living in a tent on a farm at Te Aroha with several young children, so came to the conclusion that this is when he went to Panama. If he had previously worked on the Panama railway he probably decided to go again to work on the canal since he knew the territory and had survived the perils of yellow fever and malaria on the previous occasion. Perhaps that is why I am such a tough old bird, it is in the genes!

Re TV depiction of events, look at all the shows that have women giving birth with much yelling and screaming, obviously in the greatest of agony. Yes some women do it tough, but not all of us. I would have said it was hard work but not really all that painful. But an easy birth wouldnt make for such exciting TV viewing.

Better go and do some h*******k.

Huia.

Leeds to Liverpool is 64 miles, according to google.

Jay

Hi Nicola,

Not wishing to disagree with you or anything but I'm sorely tempted to visit that Wiki page and make a nuisance of myself on the discussion page, asking for that average speed to be qualified further.

Is it: -
a) the average speed whilst on the move, allowing for speed changes due to inclines and tight bends?
b) the average speed as dictated by the route timetable? This factors in the stops for water (10-15 mins? for each fill-up - as seen in "The Titchfield Thunderbolt") as well as obvious things like stations and 'halts' (informal locations, hop aboard, no platform, no buildings), en route.

Having said all that, I'm happy to agree that Wiki's 25mph is a sensible figure for Huia's purposes. I reckon it fits well with (b) and she needs to know what is the /longest/ it could possibly have been, to test her theory.

Incidentally, when some TV pundit sets out to make a damning indictment of modern railways, they like to draw comparisons between trip times from the steam age (with more stops in the days before Mr Beeching's cutbacks) and the ones of today. There is, alledgedly, not a great deal of difference on the twistier routes.

@ Huia,

Yikes! Panama canal? He was lucky to get out of that alive. Malaria (or was it Yellow fever?) did for a LOT of workers on that (thousands). Last I heard they are currently trying to widen it.

Your hubby was well ahead of me, about that gadget. I should know better. Might help someone else though.

Tell me how to spell Aeo Teorua properly. :-D


Mark

Leeds - Liverpool by train.....

From Wikipedia, the Manchester and Liverpool Railway extension to Leeds opened in 1854, so trains were operating over that route at the time you're after. I'm not sure how far apart the cities are off the top of my head, but average speeds were 25mph.

Direct trains today do the journey in about 1hr 45 mins, so i reckon as a rough guide double that.

Thanks, Mark. Yes my OH has one of those gadgets for measuring squiggly lines on maps.
The couple did return to England at a later stage. My grandmother was b in Leeds in 1874 (although her mother might have returned alone while pregnant for all I know) and another child b in Leeds in 1876 (so the father would presumably also have returned to England at least 9 months before that birth - or at least I hope he did! They then migrated to New Zealand in 1878 where mother and children stayed, another 2 children being born here, but father going overseas to work on the Panama Canal, and returning at a later date, and dying here eventually.
Huia.

Hi Huia,

I don't know where you can buy one (though I have seen one in a motorway services shop) but there is a handy device called an "odometer" with which you can measure wiggly-shaped routes on a paper map. Costs no more than 10 pounds.

It gives you inches or centimeters and you convert according to the scale of the map.

As for speeds, here are my current thoughts (I hope to prompt someone who has any better ideas)

Brisk walking : 5mph
Relaxed walking: 3 to 4 mph
Burdened with baggage: 2 mph
Dragging a suitcase: 1 mph AND rest-breaks
Horse-drawn carriage (comfort mode)
minimum of 2x brisk walk - 10mph
maximum of 15mph but could be higher on good quality roads
Horse-drawn carriage (speed mode)
20mph?
Race horse w jockey: about 25mph
Canal Barge, horse drawn (walking pace): 5-8 mph

Wiki entry on Leeds-Liverpool canal, which was in operation at this time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_liverpool_canal

Canal boat takes the load off carrying the bags and is a far preferable option to the walk. If you think the coach ride was out of their reach, financially, then maybe look into this option. They could have 'blagged' a free ride, via a friend/family member who worked on barges or maybe paid a modest sum. (To my mind, canals were primarily for carrying goods, the boats not built for comfort and thus organised passenger servces an unlikely prospect. People who did avail themselves of it would probably not want to be seen doing so, to avoid social embarassment but, if leaving the country for good, maybe they wouldn't have cared about that).


Mark
(I was going to write something about the sea journey aspects but will save that for later).

Thanks Janet. I would have expected it to take a day or two in 1867, but then I have no idea whether there were trains going direct, or whether they would have travelled by coach, and what the roads would have been like. Perhaps I should look at a map.

Leeds to Liverpool a morning or afternoon journey.

Jay

Thanks, Old Crow.

Thank you all.
It was a steamship.
The site Cagsie gave was a Norwegian shipping line, it gives a time from Liverpool to New York of 9 to 11 days, so that would leave 3 to 5 days to get from Leeds to Liverpool, which sounds perfectly reasonable.

He travelled TO Liverpool earlier on a steamship, Aug 17-Aug 30.

Cagsie, why keep the info secret?

Ozi.

I googled & found someone's trip diary for Oct 1867. Left Liverpool on eve of 17th October & arrived New York 7th Nov. Sailing ship.

Ozi.

I would've thought it was very feasible.

Ozi.

But how long by train, because the total time frame is from Leeds to NY via Liverpool.

Married in Leeds 22 July, travel to Liverpool, sail to NY, arriving 5 Aug, 2 weeks after the wedding in Leeds.

Leeds to Liverpool was probably a very straight forward train journey.

I would think the 2 weeks by boat is feasible too.

Jay

I am wondering how long it would have taken to travel from Leeds to Liverpool in 1867.

Also, how long for a ship to travel from Liverpool to New York in 1867.

My gt grandparents were m on 22 July 1867 and I have been shown a ship manifest for SS City of Baltimore which arrived in NY 2 weeks later. On it are a couple who I think could be my gt grandparents. The man gives his occupation as mechanic, which is the occupation on gt grandfathers m cert. It is just the time-frame I am not sure about. Could they have made it to NY in 2 weeks?