Genealogy Chat

Diane, I don't know where you dredged this up from, or how, but you have dug my lazy bum out of quite a hole and I couldn't properly express my gratitude to you for this serendipitous act, and most especially to Patricia for this information, in a million years.

There are some here who have heard of my mysterious gr-grfather Ernest Augustus Monck who was really Ernest Augustus Hill, and his equally mysterious actress sister Ada Lennox Monck Hill who married, as Ada Lennox Monck, rich guy Charles Henry Coke, who then decided to change his own name to Charles McCock after losing Ada somewhere along the way.

Charles and Ada had three children, two of whom survived to 1901 -- one of whom, Henry Rossiter John Monro Coke, showed up in the Imperial Yeomanry in the Anglo-Boer War as Rossiter M. McCock (in Kevin Asplin's wonderful list, where he was found on a random google).

I've always wondered whether HRJMC/McC ended up in South Africa. I even bought a used novel on line from a South African children's charity written by an author named McCock, but it gave no clues. I didn't have any idea of where to go looking, and I pretty much didn't lift a finger to find out.

And now -- I have just done a search at the SA site and found:

RM MCCOCK, CAPE TOWN. ASKS FOR INFORMATION REGARDING CM MCCOCK (1907)

Rossiter Monro McCock asks for information about, undoubtedly, Charles Monro McCock, presumably his father's most recent incarnation.

I have yet to figure out this one:

RETIEF, VIOLET LOUISA. (FORMERLY MCCOCK, BORN STAPLEY). BORN IN DURBAN, NATAL. SSP JOHN JAMES RETIEF. DECEASED ESTATE. (1970)

but I know it has to relate somehow, because HRJMC/McC's sister who died at 16 was named Violet Louie (Louise?) Lennox McCock (no birth record ever found, names taken from death reg/census).

Okay, I've probably bored another two dozen people to tears now. But you just can't believe what a stupendous breakthrough this is for me.

If Patricia is still among us -- PM me a snail mail address and a bottle of fine Canadian ice cider will be winging its way to you!

... dang, clicking on Patricia's name gives a blank contact form. If you're out there, Patricia, my thanks again!

Hi Patricia,
Thank you for posting that information. My husband and mother-in-law were born in Southern Rhodesia and her ancestors were 'Trekboeren' (farmers on the move) in South Africa and arrived in Southern Rhodesia around 1916.
My mother-in-law is descended from French Huguenots. If there is anyone out there researching these families I would love to hear from you:-
Lombard: Jacobus (c1855), Susanna (c1884)
Linde: Anna (c1860)
Jordaan: Ann (c1903), Christina (c1904), Louis (c1905)
Van Staden: Koos (c1910), Susanna (c1912),
Most appear to havve been born around the area of Bloemfontein, South Africa
Regards,
Diane
Australia
[email protected]

Margaret, Thanks for that, it was just in time, i was going to go for some info re, a marriage in 1885. now you have helped put it into some perspective.....Thanks.Bob

Hi Derek, Copy and paste are wonderful things :o)) I am sorry to say that it's not my hard word. The details of the guy who put it together are at the bottom of the message. I agree with you, it has been put together very well and very easy to follow. I felt is was worth sharing. Regards Margaret

Felicitations de France, Margaret, what time did you get up this morning? Incredible job of work, even I can follow the instructions, so simply put, thanks a million. Can you elaborate on the "South Africa" magazine, is it on line? I'm sure many others will appreciate your labours, lotsa, Derek in France

I found the following information on one of the Genealogy news groups. I hope some of you might find something useful here. I know that there are often questions regarding SA. Good luck Regards Margaret If you are a newcomer to South African genealogy, you may have a lot of questions. Here are some answers to some of the most frequently asked questions: WHERE'S THE BEST PLACE TO BEGIN? If you're asking this on the Internet, presumably you have access to a web browser, and one of the best places to begin with South African genealogy is right here: http://home.global(.)co.za/~mercon/ WHERE CAN I FIND SOUTH AFRICAN CENSUS RECORDS? The short answer is: You can't. South African census returns are routinely destroyed after statistical information has been abstracted, so South African genealogists don't use them. WHAT DO SOUTH AFRICAN GENEALOGISTS USE THEN? One of the best places to begin is the records of deceased estates. These usually have a Death Notice, which should (but sometimes doesn't) give you the names of the parents, spouse and children of the deceased, or if the deceased was unmarried, the names of brothers and sisters. They have the wills, if any (except in the Cape, where wills and estate accounts have been filed separately from death notices in the older estates), and the estate accounts. The older ones are in the archives and have computer indexes, and you can search the indexes on the web here: http://www.national.archives.gov.za/naairs_content.htm but be sure to read the introduction and explanatory text before searching. WHERE CAN I FIND SOUTH AFRICAN SHIPPING LISTS? First, they are not a good place to start looking. They are incomplete, and all over the place. If you want to know if some relative went to South Africa and died here, look in the deceased estates, not the shipping lists. In most cases, shipping lists are a last resort, or a means of providing "filler" information to round out the family history. Secondly, if you do want to try shipping lists, you need to know where your ancestor came from, and roughly when. If the answer is Germany 1859, the shipping lists have been published (Werner Schmidt-Pretoria, _Deutsche Auswanderung nach Sued-Afrika im 19 Jahrhundert_). Some other shipping lists have also been published, but they are fragmentary. If you are looking for ancestors who emigrated to Southern Africa in the period 1890-1925, one possible source is _South Africa_ magazine. This was published in London. The Johannesburg Public Library and the National Library in Tshwane have incomplete runs. You could try other libraries too. They published lists of passengers embarking at British ports for South Africa, and embarking at South African ports for the UK (and sometimes other places). _South Africa_ magazine is a useful source, if you can find it, as it also has birth, marriage and death announcements, and other personal news, usually of the richer members of society. WHERE CAN I FIND WILLS OR PROBATE RECORDS? With the deceased estates. See: http://www.national.archives.gov.za/naairs_content.htm I did a search on the archives: what do the funny things like DEPOT and VOLUME mean? See the warning above: Be sure to read the introduction and explanatory text before searching. If you didn't, go here now: http://www.national.archives.gov.za/fields.htm HOW DO I GET A BIRTH CERTIFICATE? With some difficulty. First, to apply for one, you need to know the information you probably want to get from the certificate. That's Catch 22. Catches 1-21 are almost as bad. Birth cer- tificates are expensive. They take a long time to get. The indexes are not open to the public so you can't ask someone else to look them up. For more information, and applications forms, see: http://www.home-affairs.gov.za/ The good news is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS, Mormons) has microfilmed some of the registers, so that if you want the information in the register, as opposed to an official certificate, you can try there. If you want to know what the LDS has, go to their web site: http://www.familysearch(.)com or http://www.familysearch.org , Click on LIBRARY, click on FAMILY LIBRARY HISTORY CATALOGUE, click on PLACE NAME enter South Africa Click on Civil Registration Click on HERE right at the bottom so you have a printable copy. HOW DO I GET A MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE? Marriage certificates are of little use to genealogists in South Africa. They do not give the names and occupations of parents. They are as difficult to get as birth certificates. For more information on getting marriage certificates see: http://www.home-affairs.gov.za/ Your best chance of seeing a marriage certificate, however, is if the couple got divorced, and you find a copy in the divorce records. SOME divorce records are in the archives, and you can find them here: http://www.national.archives.gov.za/naairs_content.htm The archival references to divorces will sometimes speak of "illiquid cases" or "opposed applications", and sometimes there will be both. Make sure you order the right ones. They can be quite useful. Sometimes you can really get the dirt on your ancestors from these things - private detectives' reports on how many times they committed adultery, where and with whom, for example. Also, names and ages of minor children and who got the custody. If you still want a marriage certificate (or birth certificate), you need to apply to the Department of Home Affairs, Private Bag X114, Pretoria, 0001. Before they can issue a certificate, they usually want to know the kind of information you probably hope to get from the certificate. Marriages were registered nationally from 1923 to 1976, and after 1994. Between 1976 and 1994 some "homeland" marriages may have been registered separately. Before 1923 registrations were in the different provinces, and before 1910 in the different colonies. Before 1902 it was in the different republics and colonies. You still apply to the same place, but bear in mind that older registers are kept in the archives, and for a certificate to be written they have to be transferred from the archives to the Department of Home Affairs and then returned. This can take a long time. Also check the information above under "Birth Certificates" on how to find out if any of the marriage registers have been filmed by the LDS Church. Before about 1895 in many places marriages were only recorded in church registers. The situation is a lot more complex than described above, and the complexities are things you can ask about on the list, but the general description should give you some idea of the kind of questions that might be worth asking. WHERE CAN I FIND CHURCH RECORDS? With difficulty. There are well over 8000 separate religious denominations in South Africa, and many people change denominations 3 or more times during their lives. People move to a new town, and join a new denomination or religion, or become agnostics or atheists. The records of these denominations are all over the place too. Some of the older and larger denominations have centralised their records, but most have not. They are kept in local churches and can be damaged or destroyed by damp, acid paper or ink, insects, mice, fire or flood, or simply being tossed out in an over-zealous clean-up. Some of the smaller denominations keep very poor records. Forged marriage certificates are common, especially in rural areas. If you know what denomination your ancestors were, and where they were living, when children were born or they were married, you can ask some specific questions on the SA Genealogy list like "Where are the Wesleyan Methodist Registers for Colesberg in the period 1860-1880?" But general requests for look ups in church registers without mentioning a par

See Below