Genealogy Chat

Hi Mary,

My grandparents were living in Carshalton in Surrey, but he split up with my Gran shortly after ww2 ended and was living in Porchester, Hants after that.

My grandfather was born 1911 so that makes him about 37 I think. It could be they were of similar age, I don’t know why I got the impression she was younger, but what I read in the letter that Celina sent my Grandfather was that the people she was working/boarding at with the baby, said that they wanted her to give the baby up for adoption. She says in the letter she would not let that happen and was asking the job agency in Baker street to find her work where she can take the baby and she was told by them that they may be able to get her work where she can take her baby in the country.

Thanks for that info regarding the hospital Kay, that confirms I can rule out the birth being anywhere else other than the hospital really.

Scott,

Hope this may help confirm,

West Middlesex Hospital,
Twickenham Road,

Early numbers was 30..then increased from 30 -34,,,,,,,,,so it seems the baby was born there..

Hi Scott

More q's for you :-))

What area of the country was your grandfather living when Celina lodged with his family while she worked at a factory?

And how old was your grandfather in 1948 - I get the feeling that he and Celina were of a similar age.

Mary

I read the letters again last night, two things struck me..

1. in my grandfathers reply to her he asks if she remembers how she hated working at the factory and how her sister did not want her and how she had knowhere to live?

2. in his 3rd letter he states that the 1st letter came back and he was unable to trace her at Ealing so he had to send the next letter to Osterley Park to be forwarded on to her.


Osterley Park is nearby Ealing and has a large mansion in the park, not sure why he would send her letter there but thats what he says he did.

Just a thought - how do you know she was unmarried - may well have been widowed during the war?

Peter

Thanks for checking the scottish records Mary.

In answer to your question, i am not entirely sure how much of a connection there is, but what i do know for sure (from Celina's letter) is that she worked alongside my Grandfather in a factory, she lodged at my Grandparents house and she wrote to my grandfather after her baby was born in 1948.

From his reply letter i can work out that he hadnt seen or spoken to her for some years as he tells her that he came out of the Navy in 1946, the letter he sent dated 16th August 1948!

I do have some doubts about her being 14, as suggested, as the time that she knew my family seems too long for that, it is implied she worked with my grandfather some years ago in the 1948 letter.

As i said before, her letter was written well, so it appears she was educated enough to have good spelling and grammar. It could be possible she was a relative of some sort, or just a family friend. Either way, my grandfather was rather fond of her, and i think she of him, since she took the time to write to him at a time in her life of great difficulty.

I will re-read the letter tonight, its about 5 or 6 pages long.

The mother may not have beem born in England?.

Hi

Just a thought could Celina herself have been adopted ? formal adoptions did not exist before 1927 therefore if she was born before this time this could be why we cannot find her birth registered :O(
By the way there is a Selina K Handley down in London on the 2003 elec roll but this is not her now as the middle names are wrong.

Hi Scott

I tried the Scottish records but no Celina/Selina Handley there either, so very possible that she could have been born in Ireland :-(( If so, it could also explain why you can't find any marriage etc. as she may have returned there?

Just one question for you though........what was her connection to your grandfather? I'm guessing a friend, but what area did your grandfather live.....was that also London? Just wondering how they knew each other as it might help with an area for her.

Mary

Hi

I tried so hard this morning to find a copy of the birth certificate for Celina Mary Ann Handley (that is her name as listed on Sheila Ann Handley's birth certificate) but i couldnt find it, i was sure i had it, but maybe that was wishful thinking. Bear in mind that i have just decided to restart my family history from where i left off in 2004 so i am reviewing all my old research, today i had to go to Bognor Regis so i only had a couple of hours to find the cert i thought i had. I dont know right now where i found the 1925 date from, but it looks like i may have just guessed a date.

Anyway, If she was only 14 that would change things an awful lot, i had in my mind she was young, but not that young! Its odd why she got in contact with my grandfather at the time of her birth.

She signs her own letters as Celina, not Selina and her childs BC shes her as Celina. The letter my grandfather wrote to her, which came back to him, he wrote her name as Selina, thats why i varied the spelling, but she was good at writing her letters so i assume she could spell her own name properly as well.

I am not familiar with what SS in Ealing is?

She is really elusive, but i will keep trying because this one is important to me. If she cant be found on birth indexes, could she be Irish?

I also searched the birth indexes on here this morning between 1923 and 1932 but found no celina Handley.

I really really thank people that have helped and added to this thread, it is encouraging me a lot to find out what happened to them both.

Scott

There are 2 other children born to William and Harriet between their marriage in 1926 to Selina K's birth in 1934. Both were registered in London c (London City) as was Selina. They are Ivy D O/N/D 1926 1c/13 and William H J/A/S 1928 1c/15.

Wendy

There was a work house just up the road from west middelsex hospital . it was called..
percy house school, isleworth union.
Rose

If Aussietrish is right and Selina is Selina K Handley MMN Wakefield london c 1c page 1 a/m/j 1934 then I have found a possible marriage for her parents

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Mar 1926 (98%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HANDLEY William Wakefiekd Shoreditch 1c 139

Wakefield Harriett J Handley Shoreditch 1c 139

The marriage was 8 years earlier than Selinas birth so there would probably siblings older than her.

Wendy

Hi, like Aussietrish, I can't find a birth for Celina Handley in 1925 either. I checked alternative spellings.....Handlay, Handly, Hanley but no Celina.

Scott, you mentioned that Celina has 2 distinctive middle names......what are they please? as it would help in finding a marriage or death for her.

Also, I see from Sheila's birth that she has a middle name beginning with A........what is it please?

On the basis of Celina having 2 middle names I checked for possible deaths 1984-2005 - I found 2 possibles: Celina Louisa M Ashbridge born 13/2/1925 (not particularly unusual names though) died 1991 and Celina Arokiamary Dunn born 8/9/1934 died 1996

Also checked FreeBMD for births using just the name Celina and dates 1925 +/- 5years but no Handley names coming up on that.

Mary

Off subject - PAUL - Olde Crone's posting was 3 years ago - this thread has been brought up again.(She is still in residence over on Family Tree Forum if you want an audience with her :))

Scott,

Is she Selina or Celina ? see if you can find the birth cert and double check it, also have you searched any years for her marriage yet ?

Aussietrish,

We are looking for the marriage of the mother not Sheila, so it would be a Selina/ Celina Hanldey, only found the one in July - Sept 1952 so far no middle names though.

Scott,
If your a relative have you contacted SS in Ealing to see if they have any records of her adopted of taken into care ?

Yes Sheila, Peter is a relation, i gave him the info i had of Celina, and that is why he has her in his tree. I am sure i had the birth certificate for Celina, which i got about 4 years ago, i will have a look tomorrow (today) and if i she has a distinctive name with two middles names which i know so it shouldnt be too hard for me to find online if i havent got the paper copy anymore.

Thanks for the tip Sheila, will let you know tomorrow if i get the birth details.

Scott

Scott

Another possibility is the child could have been taken on by a member of the mothers family.

Scott,

You have Selina born in Ealing in 1925 in your tree, how sure of this are you ?
The reason I ask is I have found a poss marriage for a Selina Handley in July - Sept 1952 but it is in Wharfedale in Yorkshire, I was just wondering is she was from there, and has returned home to her family and then married.

Scott,

The child couldnt have been adopted as it would be on the birth certificate if you have applied for one in later years,but if you have the original then it wont be on it,,?

I suspect she may have married,,and the child could have been taken with her,,,,,?

The address on the birth certificate could have been the hospital ,or possibly an annex attatched to the hospital a maturnity section,,,there wasnt the maturnity hospitals as we know today and often they were called maturnity homes,