Genealogy Chat

I have found the death reference in Free BMD of my great grandmother Emma Knowles details Bury 8c page 405. On clicking on the page link I see there is a new born baby Richard Henry Knowles (age 0) also listed on the same page in the deaths. Given that Emma was only 25 when she died, this looks to me like she died in childbirth. I have reference details for Emmas death, the childs birth and the childs death, obviously all in the same quarter. The only way I'll solve this is to buy certificate(s), but surely I don't need all 3? As I see it if I buy just Emmas death cert first , it will confirm what she died of. If it was indeed childbirth then either the childs birth or death cert would establish the link to Emma. On reflection, the birth cert would be more useful since the childs death cert would only name the person reporting the death, and would probably list stillborn as cause of death. Comments please ? is this strategy OK ?

Frank If the baby was stillborn then it wouldn't be listed on the BMD indexes. The stillbirth register was, and still is, a closed register not accessible to the public. It's possible that the baby died minutes after birth and Emma shortly afterwards but age 0 just means that child hadn't reached their 1st birthday. It doesn't necessarily mean it was a newborn baby It's also possible that there's no connection between them depending on how common the surname was in the area at the time. Lou

Hi Lou, I didn't know there was such a thing as a stillbirth register! Thanks for pointing out the meaning of age 0 . I had assumed it might say 3 weeks, 6 months etc for a child that lived a short while. You're saying then, that because the baby has a registered birth and a registered death, that he must have been born alive and lived a short while and so his life and death would be treated in the normal manner from a registration point of view . The death cert for the baby must then have a cause of death on it. Given that Emmas brother in law and father in law both were called Henry, and her brother in law was called Richard it looks to me like too much of a coincidence to be an unrelated baby's death, but Emmas death cert would settle that, and tell me pretty much all I needed to know. Would the The childs death cert give his actual age (instead of 0 ) ? I would expect it to state that William Knowles (Emmas husband) is the person reporting the death, in addition to the cause of death. So it might be informitive. Thanks for your help Lou.

I have had the same situation. I found the death of my great grandmother in 1903 and on the same page was an infant Alfred. The surname Mersh is unusual. I ordered her death cert from the registrar and asked if they could confirm the death of Alfred at the same time. The death cert showed cause of death as childbirth, and the registrar confirmed that an infant Alfred Mersh had also died. Enough confirmation for me. Sadly he was the only boy after 4 girls.

Wendy, Thanks for your reply, so it looks like you managed to find out about the child for the price of the mothers death certificate. I'll give it a try !

Frank Sounds like Wendy has pretty much summed it all up for you but in answer to your other question then yes, it should state the actual age. I have a death certificate for a baby and it states that she was 9 weeks old Lou

Frank The child's birth certificate would confirm its parentage, so if the mother is the right name it would save getting the mother's and the child's death certs. Mother's death cert might give childbirth-related causes, but if she had heart failure, for example, that wouldn't necessarily link her to the birth. Not sure if it would give child's exact age. In 1950 my mother-in-law gave birth to a baby that died, his age on the death cert was 2 minutes. Heartbreaking. Incidentally, stillbirths (when the child is born dead) were only registered from 1927. When I see big gaps between children in families before this date, I think there may well have been stillbirths/miscarriages which aren't recorded. nell

On a child's death cert it usually says (in the 'occupation' column) 'son of...' Anne

It should have the daughter of ?? who ever her father or mother were. You should also get an address. Is the page number close to that of the possible mother i.e. 2, 3 or 2, 6 that kind of thing. Could be the baby have died a few days or a week after, have you look in the parish registers yet that may help. You didn't always get a birth certificate if they died at birth, and they could be buried with the mother if they died together. Irene

Lou, Helen, Anne & Irene, Thank you all for your valuable contribution, I'll let you know what I find out !

Frank, See if your local register office has the BMD's online. I know that my local area have for Teesside and Durham do. They are both very useful sites and will answer any questions you have via email. I have the very same situation as you which I discovered through Free BMD. My local office where able to tell me the infants father's name, however the infant death cert. didn't tell the mother's name. Both mother and baby died the same day and are on the same page.

One of my rellies died in childbirth and I bought her death certificate. The cause of death was puerperal peritonitis. Puerperal means linked to childbirth. If you got the mother's death certicate you might be lucky and get a similar result from the cause of death, and you would know that she had died in childbirth without paying out for the baby's certificates. Of course, if the baby had been still born or had survived to childhood, there may not be a link to the baby that you have found at all!

Leigh, I'm not dealing with my local register office in this case. I'm dealing with Bury register office, where the events are registered. They dont do BMD on line but they do have a website and an e-mail address. However, I think I'll be telephoning them prior to ordering the mothers death certificate, and take Wendy's advice and see if I can wheedle any info about the child from them. Regards, Frank

Frank In my experience, emails are better at wheedling! Good luck, whatever you try. Marjorie

Wondered if I could ask some advise aswell, my rellie died of Puerperal Fever, which I know is connected with child birth. I can't find the death or a live child for the same time, could they also die from this if they had a mis-carriage or is it just something you get with a full term pregnancy? Thanks Jane

Hi Jane, my booklet shows Puerperal Fever as 'infection after childbirth', so I would imagine that there may have been a stillbirth in this case. Also found this on a site .... 'PUERPERAL FEVER: Another infectious disease of some historical consequence brought about by Streptococcus pyogenes is puerperal fever, once known as childbed fever. The organism invades the birth canal and adjacent tissue during childbirth and the symptoms - lethargy, poor appetite, fever - usually appear 2-5 days after, although much longer incubation periods have been noted. There can be little doubt that medical practitioners and nurses were at one time significant disseminators of the disease; in fact, both Oliver Wendell Holmes and Ignaz Semmelweis independently found, during the 1840s, that infection could be substantially reduced merely by applying basic measures of hygiene during childbirth.' Horrid, but interesting. Hope it helps. Maz. XX

Thanks alot Maz Regards Jane

Marjorie, Obviously your local register office are more co-operative than Bury. I tried e-mailing and got the following response :- ======================================= We have found the entries that you requested. I can confirm that the details that you have given do match. We can only give out information in the form of a certificate. The book references are Richard Henry Bury North49/181 Emma Bury North 49/182 Regards Bury Register Office ==================================== Well Thanks anyway, Bury ! I need to go on a wheedling course, I think ! Frank

If you have reference details from the registers for Emma's death +childs birth and death then there is no reason why you should not be able to purchase all three certs if you wish. However, if at this stage you wish to purchase just 2 certs ie the mother's death + 1 other, I think it would be better to purchase the Birth Cert of the child which would give you parents names and therefore give a definite link to your family or not. You can then get the death cert at a later time if you wish. Janet