Genealogy Chat

Apologies again for my ignorance but never delved into these before....will list below what I have in a min! Lou

Still looking for my William Bibb and have been advised that Settlement Certificates might be an option. This is what I have as far as definite 'sighting's go so far: 1815 - Eldest child baptised Barton under Needwood, Staffs 1817 - Next child baptised Northleach, Glos 1819 - Next child baptised Lambeth Followed by 2 children in St Pancras, one for certain in 1824, the other possibly just before or just after. NOW....I have had a long chat today with a very helpful man at Glos Archives who says that, unfortunately, no Settlement Certs have survived for the parish and time period I need. If I target Lambeth next, would it state from **** to Northleach to Lambeth or just Northleach to Lambeth. I need to know where William and wife Mary originated but not sure if Settlement Certificates in Lambeth would give me that???? Thanks Lou

Hi Lou As my lot had far more Removal Orders than Settlement Orders, I can only speak for one - it said 'from A to B'. Thinks: Is this your Tailor Bibb? If so, he may have moved through the parishes via the Guilds as a Tradesman and would not necessarily have needed a Settlement Certificate - the Guilds would guarantee that he could find work, particularly if he was a Master Tailor - I think they were free to go where they liked. Apologies if I'm barking up the wrong tree, I seem a little addled tonight! Regards Marjorie

Hi Marjorie It is indeed my roving Tailor Bibb! I hadn't considered the possibility that he may have moved around with the Guild, although with 4 parishes in less than 7 years, maybe I should look into Removal Orders at the same time. Who knows why they kept wandering around the country? Lou

Lou Oooh, blimey, my memory does work sometimes then LOL! In that case, it might be worth considering looking at the Guild records, rather than ROs and SOs - he wouldn't have needed them. DON'T ask me where the Guild Records are! Regards Marjorie

Ok, I wont! I don't know either....have googled anything to do with Guild of Tailors till I'm purple and can't find anything of use that relates to the UK. This man is proving a pain in the proverbial! Lou

just imagining you sitting purple faced with a master taylor sticking out of your rear... (where you been?!!) jess x

Thank you for that divine image, Jess! Actually I'd rather like to have my Master Tailor sticking out of anywhere right now. At least I'd know where he was! Been working and shopping, hon, this being a single girl now is actually pretty cool - lol! Lou x

Sorry Lou I'm being dozy today. Lambeth, did you say? There are lots and lots and LOTS of records for Lambeth. Several friends of mine have spent forever and a day indexing them. Go to the East Surrey FHS website and look at publications to see if anything is published. We also have masses of unpublished indexes which can be searched through. I am forever being told what a wonderful resource this is and how much information it contains. What I don't know is whether they pounced on every innocent worker who arrived in the parish, or if they only took examinations of the dodgy ones! Brenda

Thanks Brenda I'll take a look. If they only pounced on the dodgy ones, chances are mine will be listed! Out of 23 references to them on A2A the other night, almost 20 were for bastardy bonds and non payment of maintenance! Lou

I've just read Marjorie's post and realise that what I've posted may be completely irrelevant. Oh well.

Hi Anne I'm sure Brenda or Marjorie could explain it better BUT... A Settlement Order was for someone relocating to a parish from elsewhere. I think it was to do with an examination of their circumstances to check that they could support their family financially. If you have a roving ancestor as I do it might be a good way of locating them. Shopping was FAB! Lou

Anne, In the old days, there was no free movement of people or labour mainly because the Parish in which you lived had to be responsible for you - ie Poor Relief - if you fell on hard times. So after working 365 days in one Parish, you could apply for a Settlement Order or Certificate. I believe your original Parish could also chose to expel you (Removal Order) if you lived away from it for a certain time - or had otherwise transgressed. No doubt, Marjorie, Lou or Jess can add something to my basic explanation. Regs Jane

Children take their father's place of settlement... unless they are bastards, in which case their place of settlement is where you are born. You keep your place of settlement unless you do anything to change it. This can happen in various ways. A woman takes her husband's place of settlement. Renting property of a certain value gave you right of settlement. Being employed in a place for more than a year... which is why there were annual hiring fairs. Every one was on a short term contract, so they did not gain settlement, except for apprentices. This is extremely simplified and there were other ways in which you could change your place of settlement. Occasionally two facts would contradict each other and there would be unseemly bickering between parishes as they tried to offload their paupers. Pity the poor women who married men who came from the other side of the country and were sent among strangers in their old age.

Brenda There is a lovely removal order on A2A where the poor bloke is complaining bitterly about 'being tossed from Parish to Parish like a stone'. This in the middle 1600s! My rellie, well, I think she is my 3 x GGM, kept going to another Parish to see her illegitimate child (my 2 x GGF) who lived with his father. She kept getting sent back to her Settlement Parish as soon as she set foot in the neighbouring Parish. Craftsmen who had served their apprenticeship were allowed to move fairly freely from Parish to Parish as their Guilds took responsibility for them, should they fall on hard times. Master Craftsmen could move around wherever they liked because they were almost always 'Freemen of the Borough'. Lou dear, I have looked in my PRO guide book, which is much easier to fathom than the site! Nothing at all about Tailors, however, I wonder if Apprentice Records might help, they are held in IR 1, by County (1710-1811) and, it says here, often contain the name of the parents of the boy apprenticed, as well as his Master etc. The records run from IR1 thru IR 17, which appears to be 'Exemptions from Impressment', which reminded me that I knew the only people who could not be Press-ganged were Apprentices and those with 'The Kings Evil'!!!!! (How did you prove that then,...no... I will allow you to do your own search on PRO - I have never, ever, managed to find anything on there, I get lost. Marjorie

There is an index - not brilliant, but better than nothing - to the apprenticeships on which tax was paid. It is held by the Society of Genealogists, with indexes both to apprentices and masters. The earlier period is more useful as it gives fathers. No tax was payable if you were apprenticed to your father. I thought there were plans to put the index on Origins, but haven't seen any publicity for this.

Brenda Yes, the one you mention appears to be in IR 17. I havent actually looked on the PRO site, this is from a book, so it may well be indexed by now. There is some incredible stuff in this book - Apprenticeships of children sent to sea by Christs Hospital - from FIVE YEARS OLD!!!! Oh, the poor little mites... Marjorie

FIVE YEARS OLD? And I thought my 12 year old ancestor sent to sea on a Man of War was hard done by. Mind you, the popular method in the south east was to pack the little paupers off to mills in the northern towns. Most of them never came back as adults.

Thank you both Wonderfully helpful as always! I will attempt a search on the PRO but have never yet managed to find my way around it. I was actually very impressed with myself at managing to locate a will and 2 medal cards and that took me a while so I wont try and run before I can walk! I was hoping that apprenticeship records would help but having no idea where he originated, I'm not sure whether I would be able to locate anything useful. William is a new concept for me - the roving ancestor - as up to now the others were all very static and remained in the same village from birth to death! Lou