Genealogy Chat

If Rose could have got away with putting a father on the birth certificate, I'm sure she would have done. I imagine that her community knew perfectly well that there had been no sight of a husband in the last ten months (I have baptisms which state that the husband vanished 6 3/4 years ago, just to ram the point home). When you marry, you are allying (?) yourself to a group of strangers. The bride is not being given away by the father, which immediately raises questions. It would be fairly safe, however, to give the first name that sprang into your mind as nobody is likely to be able to disprove it.

Hello Tabby, Gosh it makes it difficult doesn't it. How can you know if you are definitely following the right person? I haven't been doing this long (8 months) so I guess I'll have to be more patient, but although little bits of the puzzle are beginning to fit I feel I don't know which bits are made up and am worried about going down the wrong path. But I guess I won't know until I try!! Louise

The naughty girl in my family, Fanny (!) Horne had numerous children and is described variously as unmarried, housekeeper and widow on the censuses, but never a change of surname in sight. Her brother Zachariah Horne had a similarly flexible relationship with one Joanna Fry. When Joanna's daughter married, she gave her father's name as Zachariah Fry. I have even known a girl use her blood uncle's name on a marriage certificate. It looks as if all the other pieces are falling into place in your jigsaw, but whether you will ever possitively identify the father is a different matter. Good luck.

I'm going to the spiritual church to see if mine will get in touch and tell me...................

Well Louise they were difficult times .................... and a girls gotta do wot a girls gotta do!!!!!!!!!!! LOL Maybe she was unfortunate enough to lose all of her husbands whilst she was pregnant! Far fetched but we all know anything is possible, just as long as it makes research more difficult! One of my grt grt grandmas was widowed a couple of months before the census and put her occupation down as 'wife of dock worker'. Mandy

Hi Heather, Do you mean Harry was her father and George was her step-father and she gave his name to the vicar? That is a possibility but then I don't understand why her father isn't on her birth certificate if her mum was married that is unless I have the wrong birth certificate. Feel like I'm going round in circles, lol. Hi Mandy, Yes I had read that housekeeper sometimes meant they were living in sin. That makes the situation even more confusing as one of the children is only 11 months, so is she now with a Henry Thearle and if so where are George and Harry Tickner? lol Louise

Just to add to the confusion I have come across Housekeeper used a few times as occupation for wife - sometimes they were married and once 'living in sin' with a different surname. Mandy

Hi Kathleen, Yes I think I will definitely do that now. Didn't want to before as really wasn't sure it was Rose's marriage, but after your suggestions today I will with the father's name as a checking point. Many thanks for all your help Kathleen. I had become so confused by the whole situation that I wasn't able to think clearly about all possibilities and everyone has been really helpful. Louise

Do you think that she gave her step-father's christian name to the vicar. My father-in-law's marriage cert has his step-father's name instead of father's name with his father's name below. Heather

Could you order the marriage certificate for Rose Mary Turner to Harry Tickner, and give the brides father as Robert Turner as a checking point so they only send you the certificate if the father has the correct name? Kath. x

You're welcome Louise, hope you get to the bottom of it. Trudy

Thank you everyone for your prompt replies. Do you know I can't believe I hadn't thought of this scenario even though I have a very similar situation in my immediate family. Don't know why I didn't think of it. I thought maybe George was his second name and that maybe he died while she was pregnant and this might be why his name wasn't on the certificate (not sure if that would have made a difference). I think I have found them on the 1901 census but there is no George or Harry Tickner just a Henry Thearle and Rose is stated as married not a widow and is housekeeper to Henry with two other children one aged three and one aged 11 months. This makes it even more confusing eh! I am sure this is the same Alice I have the birth cert for as it gives the place of birth as Earlswood, and the Alice I have is born in Earlswood, Reigate. Also, it states her place of birth is Hidenham, Norfolk. On her marriage certificate to George Card she gives her father's name as Robert Turner and she is 40. I have looked at the 1881 census and found a Rosa Turner aged 7 born in Hidenham with a father Robert. Trudy, You most definitely didn't offend me. Glad you helped :-). No, I haven't found a date of death for a Harry Tickner, haven't looked but will definitely do so now and will look to see if I can find a Harry and brother George in earlier censuses. Heather, I was writing this message just as you posted. Yes I have found this entry and this is probably them. See the above. Thank you for looking :-) Many thanks, Louise

Have you looked at the 1901 census? There is a Rose Tickner with daughter Alice and two other children in Reigate. Rose was a housekeeper. Heather

Hi, Just a thought. Maybe George was her real father but her mother married Harry Tickner. Was George the brother of Harry? Did she have an affair which would explain the absence of Father on her birth cert? Have you checked out the Tickner family on the census? Or was her father's name Harry George Tickner and just used his middle name as lots of people did in those days? but that wouldn't explain the absence of his name on the cert. Hope you work it out as it looks like you have the correct cert. best wishes, Carol

Hi Louise Don’t mean to cast aspersions, but have you considered the possibility that your great grandmother might have been illegitimate and that is why the father’s name is not shown. Is it possible that your gg grandmother married and had an affair and your ggrandmother is the result – this might explain the absence of a name on the birth cert. It may be that your gggrandfather (Harry Tickner) was happy to bring up the child, but not to have his name on the cert. By the time your ggrandmother married, she may have considered that Harry Tickner was her father – she may have been told this by other family members to save her mothers feelings, so she gave the name when marrying. Do you have a date of death for Harry Tickner before the date of her marriage to George Card? This might answer part of the question – is it possible that she lied and wasn’t really a widow, but was separated from her first husband because of the baby (your ggrandmother)? Remember at that time divorce had to be granted by an act of parliament and wasn’t easily obtained by the working classes. I hope none of the above offends you, but I had a similar scenario in my tree not long ago, and once I had a fresh look at it with critical eyes it all fitted into place. Regards Trudy

Did the Harry Tickner that Rose was married to have a brother called George? Could Rose have had Alice by her husbands brother, hence the different first name, and also why the fathers name was not on the birth certificate? Kath. x

My great grandmother was Alice Louisa Tickner born c 1897. She married a William Thom Randall in Horley in 1918. Alice Louisa Tickner died in 1926 from consumption. I think I have found her birth certificate but not 100% sure as the facts don't all add up. The certificate I have says that she was born in March 1897 in Reigate and gives the mother's name as Rose Mary Tickner but no father's name. On Alice's marriage certificate it states that her father's name is George Tickner (a labourer) and her mum is a witness but by this point she is Rose Mary Card. I have found a marriage certificate for her mother in 1915 to a George Card and it gives her name as Rose Mary Tickner a widow and her father's name as Robert Turner. I have found a marriage for a Rose Mary Turner to a Harry Tickner in Reigate in December in 1894 on FreeBMD but I am not sure if this the correct marriage as the name is wrong and if they got married in 1894 then don't understand why Alice's father's name wouldn't be on her birth certificate in 1897. How can I verify if I have found the right birth certificate and what could be the reason that her father wouldn't be on her birth certificate three years after her parents married (if that is the right marriage). Hope this is not too confusing and that someone can help. Louise

I have very little information from family members on my father's side of my family. My father passed away in 1985 and I have lost contact with his brother and there are no other members I have contact with to ask for help/information. I would like your opinions on some what I have found so far as I am not sure I have found the correct birth certificate for my g grandmother - see below