Genealogy Chat

Finally, I received James Rutherford's birth certificate few weeks ago. I could not believe to find his mother's maiden name was Rook. Mystery solved why they used Rook, instead of Rutherford in 1901 census. Perhaps James wanted to remember his mother. I ordered James' WW1 records from LSD to find about his marriage details and Gertrude's birth of place and date. It would be very soon. Also I really hope his records would be survive from bombs in WW2. I received his death certificate that he was in an army campaign pensioner, corporate ROAC (number unknown). He died in1926.

Orangebloosom, I am not sure about Violet E Baker in Islington. But Gertrude and George's children were born in Woolwich from 1918 to 1923. They had twin stillborns in 1822 in Woolwich. Okay, thanks for James Rutherford's registration numbers. I will keep it in case. I hope he was my great grandfather.

Yes, I wrote it wrong - have corrected. Is this one of your relations? Birth Sep 1916 Baker Violet E mother - Rutherford Islington 1b 428

Orangeblossom, I am not sure with James' GRO that he was born on Dec 1852. Because he was christening on 28 Dec 1851. So he would be born before Dec 1851. And his sister Mary was christening on 6 Jan 1850, both at Burgh by Sands from familysearch.

James' GRO ref: Dec 1851 Rutherford James Carlisle XXV 47 No sign of Gertrude under Rook or Rutherford :(

Hi Suzanna, Yes I have checked in 1881 census of James Rutherford or Rook but nothing to match. But I have found him in 1871-1861. His parents were Robert Rutherford (police/prison warden) and Jane with only one sister, Mary of James. Also found them in familysearch. I am not sure if it was James Henry Rutherford because I have not seen his christening name 'Henry'. Because I have his christen records from familyseach that he was christening on 1851 at Burgh, Cumberland. Yes, it is possible that James and Mary fostered Gertrude. How do I find out? It seems difficult. Hi Jeanette, I have checked Gertrude's birth in Jan-Mar 1889 but no name of Gertrude in it. It was page 453, Rus-Rze. Thanks for helping. Hi Zoe and Tracey, yes I agreed with you that he was born Burgh, Cumberland around 1851. I already have copies of their censuses and I am holding it in case if Robert and Jane Rutherford were my great great grandparents. Yes I am getting lots of stuff, lol but I am glad that it was easy. Robert must be re-married to Elizabeth after his first wife Jane died. But no luck with Gertrude Rutherford :-( I am trying to find out about her mother's descendants. Thanks for your time, Steven.

There's two possible births for Mary... 13. MARY RUTHERFORD - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 26 NOV 1809 Burgh By Sands, Cumberland, England 14. MARY RUTHERFORD - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 23 DEC 1810 Burgh By Sands, Cumberland, England 13 is daughter of Ann (another illegitimate!) 14 is daughter of Robert and Elizabeth, and is still with them in 1851.

Orangeblossom That's why I was trying to see who they married just incase he took that name on because it was a family name~ hopefully we can figure it out Zoe

So Robert was illegitimate?! Maybe Rook comes from him? Well, his mother?

And Roberts birth well christening! ROBERT RUTHERFORD Male -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Event(s): Birth: Christening: 04 APR 1824 Burgh By Sands, Cumberland, England -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Parents: Mother: MARY RUTHERFORD Getting lots of stuff you don't want now LOL Zoe

From IGI JAMES RUTHERFORD Male -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Event(s): Birth: Christening: 28 DEC 1851 Burgh By Sands, Cumberland, England -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Parents: Father: ROBERT RUTHERFORD Mother: JANE Zoe

I agree with Zoe... 1851 Robert Rutherford abt 1825 Burgh, Cumberland, England Head Burgh by Sands Cumberland Jane Rutherford abt 1821 Westward, Cumberland, England Wife Burgh by Sands Cumberland Mary Rutherford abt 1850 Burgh, Cumberland, England Daughter Burgh by Sands Cumberland 1861 Robert Rutherford abt 1824 Burghley Gard, Cumberland, England Head St Cuthbert Within Cumberland Jane Rutherford abt 1821 Westward, Cumberland, England Wife St Cuthbert Within Cumberland Mary Rutherford abt 1850 Burghley Gard, Cumberland, England Daughter St Cuthbert Within Cumberland James Rutherford abt 1852 Burghley Gard, Cumberland, England Son St Cuthbert Within Cumberland 1871 Robt Rutherford abt 1824 Burgh, Cumberland, England Head St Cuthbert Within Cumberland Jane Rutherford abt 1822 West Ward, Cumberland, England Wife St Cuthbert Within Cumberland James Rutherford abt 1852 Burgh, Cumberland, England Son St Cuthbert Within Cumberland Marriages Jun 1874 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CAIRNS Elizabeth Carlisle 10b 883 Rutherford Robert Carlisle 10b 883 1881 Robert Rutherford abt 1825 Burgh, Cumberland, England Head Elizabeth Rutherford abt 1832 Scotland Wife Charles Cairns abt 1860 Moss Bank, Cumberland, England Step Son Jane Cairns abt 1863 Carlisle, Cumberland, England Step Daughter Mary A. Cairns abt 1865 Hayton, Cumberland, England Step Daughter Adam S. Cairns abt 1871 Carlisle, Cumberland, England Step Son 58 Charlotte Street, Caldewgate, Cumberland, England

This could be your Rutherford in 1871 but without the marriage cert we will not know 1871 James Rutherford abt 1852 Burgh, Cumberland, England Son St Cuthbert Within Cumberland Jane Rutherford abt 1822 West Ward, Cumberland, England Wife St Cuthbert Within Cumberland Robt Rutherford abt 1824 Burgh, Cumberland, England Head St Cuthbert Within Cumberland 1851 James Rutherford abt 1852 Burgh by sands, Cumberland, England Son St Cuthbert Within Cumberland Jane Rutherford abt 1821 Westward, Cumberland, England Wife St Cuthbert Within Cumberland Mary Rutherford abt 1850 Burgh by Sands, Cumberland, England Daughter St Cuthbert Within Cumberland Robert Rutherford abt 1824 Burgh by Sands, Cumberland, England Head St Cuthbert Within Cumberland Now Burgh by Sands is in the Carlisle area thats what he puts in 1901 and if I remember correctly he says Burgh Cumberland on the 1891 Cannot see him in 1881 will have another look Zoe

just looked on ancestry 1889 1st 1/4 2 pages missing it goes Russel then Salt and you can see the rings of the binder holding them together so may not be on 1837 site either. Jeanette

There was a thread on her yesterday by someone who said that they had read somethng about people changing identities because of illigitimate children? Maybe this was the case with james? Suzanne

Going off the point slightly....Have you tried to track backwards in the census to see what James was known by before 1891? Rutherford or Rook? Name: RUTHERFORD, James Henry Record Type: Births Quarter: September Year: 1853 District: Carlisle County: Cumbria Cumberland Volume: 10b Page: 357 Suzanne

you did look in 1st 1/4 of 1889 as she was born 21 dec she sould more than likley be reg in Jan 1/4. jeanette

I have been searching for a birth certificate of my great grandmother for years. I have found some clues but it is unsuccessful to solve it. She is a mystery woman! I only know her name that was Gertrude Rutherford who was born on 21 December so I believe her birth of year would be 1888. I think her parents were James Rutherford and Mary Ann. I have their 1891 census in Woolwich. In 1891 census at Plumstead, James was 39 years old and born in Burgh, Cumberland, his wife, M.A. (I think it was Mary Ann) was 38 years old and born in Walworth. Gertrude was 2 years old and born in Lambeth. But in 1901 census in Woolwich, their surnames changed to Rook. James was 49, Mary Ann was 48 and Gertrude was 12 where she was born in Woolwich. In their address, 27 Dicey St was exactly address where Gertrude’s first son, Harry Allen Rutherford was born in 1905 at Woolwich that I have his birth certificate. Harry’s father was unknown but the father’s surname could be Allen. Also another child, Mary Gertrude Allen Rutherford was born in 1906 at Woolwich but the father was unknown again. Gertrude was married to my great grandfather George Baker as a soldier in 1915 at Woolwich. In their marriage certificate, their ages were not true. It looks like they swapped their ages. Her father was James Rutherford who was a dock labourer. She was a spinster. She worked as a laundress in Royal Arsenal at Woolwich. It is possible where they met there. They had 3 children (including my late grandmother), all born in Woolwich from 1919 to 1923. Gertrude’s maiden name was Rutherford. They and Mary Allen Rutherford were all migrated to Western Australia in 1924. There was no Harry Allen Rutherford. I have tried to find his marriage or death certificate but it was unsuccessful. Gertrude was died in Perth in 1965. I have her death certificate that she was born in England and her father’s surname was Rooke. It can’t be! It looks like same on in 1901 census. She was twice married to Rutherford (unknown) and Baker. I believe she was married once to Baker. Her informant for the death certificate was by her oldest daughter, Mary who died in 1980. The children of Gertrude were told me that they did not know more about Gertrude as she kept her secrets for all of her life. They told me that Gertrude was a foster by Allen family. I don’t think so. I have my grandmother’s marriage certificate that Gertrude’s maiden was Allen! And in her birth certificate, Gertrude’s maiden was Rutherford. I am looking for Gertrude’s birth certificate for her mother’s maiden name and father’s name for confirmation. I have been looked up 1837online, FreeBMD, The Genealogist, etc. All were none. Could you please find it for me or give me some ideas where to find out? Thanks, Steven from Australia.