Genealogy Chat

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My great-grandmother is Catherine Purcell (born c1868) and it’s her father, Peter, who I’ve been trying to track down. On Catherine’s first marriage certificate (1886) her father is named as Peter Purcell (deceased), soldier. On her second marriage certificate (1898) – she was widowed – her father is named as Peter Purcell (deceased), Sergeant in HM Army. On the 1891 census, Catherine gives her place of birth as Ireland but on the 1901 gives it as Plymouth, although this could be an understandable mistake given that she lived most of her life in Plymouth. I can’t find any trace of the family on the 1871 census, but think I have found them – minus Peter – on the 1881: Rebecca Purcell – Head – Widow – age 38 – born Plymouth, Devon James – son – 16 – born Plymouth, Devon John – son – 11 – born Gibraltar * this could be why they’re not on the 1871 * Catherine – daur – 13 – born Belfast, Ireland Peter – son – 7 – born Limerick, Ireland I then found a marriage for a Peter Purcell in Plymouth but typically, not enough females on the page, so I took a chance and sent for it. It is dated 26 February 1865 and lists Peter Purcell marrying Rebecca Rundle, so this would tie in with the widowed Rebecca on the 1881 census. Peter is aged 29, making him born c1836, so wouldn’t be able to get a birth cert for him. I’ve never been able to find a birth cert for Catherine either, which would fit in with her being born in Ireland. They are also all Catholics on every cert, which is another common point. First question is – dare I risk it and assume that I’ve found the right family? Second question is – on Peter’s marriage certificate in 1865, he is listed as a general labourer; would he have gone on to become a soldier after the age of 29? Third question is – taking all the above info into account, and the dates of birth of the children, I’ve narrowed his year of death to somewhere between 1874 and 1881 (although I can’t find it on the overseas section of 1837); are there any conflicts he’s likely to have been killed in during that period of time? Sorry it’s a long one, but I’ve tried to list all the information I have clearly. Very grateful thanks to anyone who can help! Mandy

Copied and pasted from Keiths thread on war dates:- Anglo-Zulu War (1879) Boer War ( 1880 - 1881 and 1899 - 1902) Either of these two conflicts would be covered by the dates you give. Kath. x

Thanks Kath, that's great. Mandy

1837 on line has references for Boer war deaths might be worth a look

Thanks Linda, but I've already checked the overseas deaths on 1837 and found nothing. Mandy

Have you considered buying the birth cert for the son born in Plymouth. This would appear to be the details: Surname First name(s) District Vol Page -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Births Dec 1865 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Purcell James Stoke D 5b 318 If you have located the correct family you will have mother's maiden name (as confirmation) and also name and occupation of the father. If it's Peter Purcell then I think you can happily claim this family! Incidentally where did they marry? I couldn't find their marriage listed on Vol 1 of the DFHS Plymouth marriages. Pete

Hi Pete Yes, I think I will follow your advice and get James' birth cert. The marriage reference was 1st quarter 1865 - Plymouth - 5b, p445. On the actual cert, they were married at the Church of St Mary and St Boniface, Cecil Street, Plymouth. Many thanks for your helpful advice. Mandy

Anyone else like to offer an opinion ... please lol? I've bitten the bullet and ordered what I think should be Catherine's birth certificate from GRONI online, based on the information I've collated - fingers crossed that it's her! Mandy

Hi Mandy One thought on the army thing. He could have served in the army and been discharged before he got married Jacqui

Mandy, If you do get the information you hope for with the birth cert from NI then you might (if you are really lucky) get a rank and regiment on the birth cert. Have you looked into the Regimental births records on 1837. They are lurking somewhere with all the other overseas records. I'm never sure which series of records to search - there are so many to choose from. Perhaps an email to customer support on the 1837 site will tell you which series to search for the Gibraltar birth registrations for the dependants of army personnel. A birth recorded by the Army is more likely to provide rank and regiment and hopefully lead you to tracing an Army record. I have read elsewhere that army births in Gibraltar as far back as 1840 are available (probably not online!!). I expect these can be found at Kew. good luck! Pete

Mandy, Saw this at lunchtime and just read the message from Pete. I am planning a trip to Kew, to hopefully find out more about my Grandfather (Ernest Roden Mason), but not until the summer holidays - I know it's a long way off yet!!!! However if you are still stuck on this one then I will be more than happy to check things out for you - I owe you some help after all you've helped me with lately. Love Anne (in North London) XXXX

Hi Anne Thanks very much for your kind offer - I might well take you up on that. It's Mum's grandma and great-grandad. Hi Pete Thank you so much for your help; I checked the births on 1837 and no luck, but I will definitely try to get the birth cert for one of the other children. Mandy

Mandy, Going back to the marriage of Peter and Rebecca. As you have the cert you'll know the name and occupation of Peter's father. Have you been able to use that information to locate them in any of the censuses for England and Wales. It appears that most of the PURCELL's originate from Ireland so you may get no luck with the census on Ancestry. Is there any evidence to suggest a birth place for Peter? I have access to the Devon 1841 and had no joy locating your man! I still feel that one lucky break from one of the children's birth certs is your best chance of gaining relevant information to identify Peter Purcell. Hopefully his army record will give you a place of birth. Pete

Hi Pete I can't track Peter down on any census so, as yet, no suggestions of a place of birth. His father is named on his marriage cert as Patrick Purcell (deceased) and although I haven't found a relevant death yet, there is a Patrick Purcell (born c1816) living in Stoke Damerel on the 1861 census, so he's a possibility. The GRONI site estimates delivery of certs in 8 working days, so fingers crossed that they locate Catherine with the details I've provided. To be honest, the only thing that's really throwing me is Peter being down as a General Labourer on their marriage cert, and then a Soldier later on. I'm really grateful for your help; it's so useful to have someone to bounce ideas with. Thanks also for looking on the 1841 census for me. Many thanks Mandy

Mandy, Just one look at the places of birth of the children says 'soldier'. So he could have been a General labourer in 1865 but by the time he had children born in two locations in Ireland and also in Gibraltar he was army. I am alway wary of any declaration by the groom about occupation at time of marriage. ( I know what my marriage cert says!!) Their location at the time of the 1871 census could be either Gib or Ireland. Neither is any help to you! I think you have made the right decision. Get more info about Peter from his children's birth certs and once you get that info chase his army record. You must post the outcome of the NI cert on here, I'll check back with interest. Pete

Hi again Pete Yes - that's what I thought about the various locations for the children's births. Then Helpful Hubby just said 'oh if he was 29 and a general labourer in 1865, he'd have been far too old to then join the army'. I'm now going to stop work on his tree immediately and not feed him for a week lol! I've also just asked a GR friend and she says that quite a lot of men joined the Army later in life, in order to get the King's Shilling and their Army pension. You've been so helpful, thanks a lot (do you have Plymouth ancestors too?). I'll definitely let you know about the NI birth cert when it arrives. Mandy

YIPPEE!!!!! Just received Catherine's birth certificate from GRONI today; her father is Peter Purcell and she was born in Belfast Barracks! Her father was also the informant, so his rank and regiment is given on the cert (Private, 28th Regiment). Thanks everyone for all your help on this one, especially Pete. Mandy (who is now going to have a smiley face all day!)